universal 12 question and copedents

[James Mitchell]

If the uni 12 combines kinda both copedents, why is it not that well received. I don't have one. I have a GFI Expo D-10. (wanting to add the 5th knee lever). I am a new player and am soooooo overwhelmed by this instrument. It's fun though.

[Micky Byrne]

Hi James, on the contrary 12 string universals "are" getting more popular these days. There was a recent thread about it on this forum. Admittedly there are more D-10 plays, but many are changing over. The factors include weight, price, and practically all on one neck, or as most do consider it as just one "big" tuning. Re your 5th lever, get a LKV to lower your 5th. Check the Universal E9th/B6th copedents at the top of the forum page.

Micky Byrne U.K.

Sho-Bud and Carter universals

www.micky-byrne.co.uk

[Sherman Willden]

Remember also the guitar can be a B6/E9. I have considered changing my lower 8, 4, 2 strings to raises. It seems that the 6th side would be easier then.

[J D Sauser]

I think that more and more new players are opting for a single neck PSG... usually E9th.
This may over time generate 2 new tendencies:

• 1-The PSG will become a single neck intrument.
• 2-Tuning evolutions will be added to that single neck. Will it be the changes we know TODAY as the "universal"? I doubt it, although some may stick.

Personally, I think we are still "suffering" from the multi-neck syndrome originated by the last generation of pro players around who started out without pedals and were thus musically raised in a multi-neck tradition. Their first PSG's were thus multi-necks and it seemed unnecessary for many to break the habit when "universals" became technically possible.
The argument often was different, even claiming that universals lacked possibilities in this or that "mode". They obviously failed to recognize that they would really not only have 3&5 in one and 4 or 5& 1 in the other "mode" but actually 7 or 8&5 in the one and 7 or 8&5 in the other tuning too.
Really, for a universal approach to be successful, I believe the player has to transcend the idea of having TWO tunings in one and recognize that it is in fact ONE bigger tuning. We don't call E9th "E9th/A6th" and discuss how to explore the A6th-mode of the "two" tunings, now do we? It's the same with E9th-U or B6th-U or Bb6th-U.

I currently have my PSG setup with an E9th with an added 13th (C# on top of the middle B) with all the common E9th pedal and lever changes, PLUS the basic B6th changes (universal... but re-arranged over some levers and pedals to reduce redundancy and better possibility of combining across the "two" concepts... which freed me enough pedals to add Speedy West's F#9th (really E13th) changes which were not already present with the rest. With 7&6 (two small verticals on the left knee).
So, what would I have to call that? E9th13th/B6/F#9th "tripleversal"? Naw! It's E9th or call it E13th. It doesn't matter! Once one presses a pedal or lever on ANY PSG, the tuning is GONE anyway.

James Mitchell:
I think the best way out of being soooo lost would be for you to map your "neck" out as follows:

Just find the SAME name chord all over the fretboard, exploring with the pedal and lever changes.
Like just hunting down all "A" chords. SEE the distance relationship (interval) of all the pedal-lever changed combinations for that same ONE chord. Once you got that, not by fret number, but as a movable map, you just learned'em all, all 12!
Example: You have "A" at the nut with A&B down, then 5 frets above from that without any pedals and levers, again 5 frets further up with only the E-to-Eb-lower lever and then 2 frets further (12 from where we started) with A&B down. That formula repeats EXACTLY the same way for ALL 11 other chords. Obviously, you will find MANY more positions in between these by adding other pedals and levers and combinations. If you have 3&1... well, you got for a year of explorations, and if you have 8&5 on the same tuning, you just keep adding to your formula for another couple of years. THAT's UNIVERSAL!

Get Maurice Anderson's "The Missing Link" course and a month from now, you will not believe you had been lost.
Get it from "the man" himself: www.msapedalsteels.com/reece/page2.html

... J-D.

[Pete Burak]

Single neck Universal tunings can cover a huge amount of musical territotry.

[Christopher Woitach]

I agree, Pete - the world of music, laid out in front of you...

[Jonathan Mitguard]

I've wondered the same thing ever since going to a SU12 set up in 1984. I think the continued popularity of the D 10 is because of the perceived superiority of them. Just because we have seen our heros play them for ever. I've seen so many players that have Double necks that basically use the C6th as an arm rest. Another good reason for a double is for those who want lots of changes on the instrument which may not be possible on one neck. Paul Franklin comes to mind, I don't think he could get all his changes on one neck. It is conceivable also that the mass of a double neck could impact the tone.
Whatever the reason, I have never regretted the conversion and recommend the U-12 for anyone entering the pedal steel world. If you have a double and are considering a switch you might tune your back neck to B6 to start shifting your brain.

[Ken Metcalf]

My 12 strings both fit into my Hatton split cases and are Light!!!
The big one weighs 35 Lbs
Nicely designed cases

[Ryan Barwin]

I think the reason is that most players start with an S-10, because it's the simplest, easiest to learn, least expensive option, and there's lots of resources to learn. When they get further into it, and want to explore the 6th sounds, they'll get a D-10, because they can add the back neck, while keeping the identical E9th setup and not have to relearn anything. By the time they learn the C6th neck, it's easier to stay with a D-10 rather than partially relearn two necks, and be a bit lost for a while. As well as losing some familiar changes.

[Brad Malone]

J. D Sauser, I was looking at Winnie Winston and Bill Keith's 1976 Pedal steel guitar book today and I noticed that Speedy West's F#9 and E9th tunings follow the same note spacing from string 3 to string 10..the E9th strings are one tone lower than the F#9 strings. now if one were to drop the second string of his E9th tuning from E to D and his 1st string of his E9th tuning from G# to F# it would replicate his F#9, albeit one tone lower. Speedy did not have the Eb, second string and the F# first string but this might be of some use to people who have a 12 string steel.

[J D Sauser]

This is off topic, so let me try to keep this short. Speedy developed his tunings on non-pedal guitars and later a mechanically "limited" Bigsby PSG. Even on his "Speedy West"-Marlen he still only had a single finger changer.
IMO, his so called "swing"-tuning's setup reflects the mechanical limitations of his his early PSG guitars. (Btw., talking of "SWING"-tuning; this is also a misleading statement, since many of his swingy material was partially or entirely plaid on the E9th neck!... "Speeding West" being the most famous one, the melody line plaid on E9th with A&B down! Likewise, some of his sweetest Hawaiian tunes were recorded off his "swing"-neck)

The pedal which raises his Bb to B was his MAIN-pedal on "F#9th" - he often held it down for an extended time period. It effectively turns the neck into E13th. E13th was a common tuning back then. THEN you look at the other changes, and they start to make sense.
Had Speedy had access early on to mechanically more versatile guitars like we do now, he could have united his very basic E9th with his E13th EASILY...

Check out Zane Becks E6/9th (13th), which has recently found some renewed interest in discussion on here, and also Buddy Emmons' E13th S12 (on a S12 Carter. It's somewhere on the www.buddyemmons.com site). And, looking at Speedy's tuning as an E13, you will see those changes pop up here and there.


A well known PSG player who's name escapes me right now, was said to play E9th "upside down" or "backwards". His A&B pedals where changing his neck from A6th to E9th. Effectively, his E9th was with A&B DOWN. Was that an A6th tuning or E9th-backwards?
Well, really the guitar must have been tuned open to A6th, but his setup was not a typical A6th swing setup (like Herbie Remington I believe would have it) but an E9th setup.


[hr]


Back to the subject at hand:

The idea of extended/optional or "artist" changes being "lost" or not ALL changes from a complex D10 setup being possible on a S12U with 8&5 is in my opinion a misconception based on a poor understanding of the musical values (interval results) of changes on either or both necks.

When one unites both tunings, some changes are directly redundant (a pedal pulling the same string to the same value as another pedal or lever-typical C6th's optional A-to-Bb-lever raise and E9th's "B"-pedal G#-to-A raise; once the E-to-Eb-lever is engaged on E9th, the "B"-pedal does musically the EXACT same as the optional lever change on C6th; rase the 6th note to a b7th!) or "relatively" redundant (an fairly equal or equally voiced chord change occurring on different but fairly closely related string groups).
The second one is more often overlooked of course.

Once the union of two tunings and setups -which ever they may be- is made, some of these of these redundancies can be weeded out. Something which can lead to an entirely different melted setup (re-arranging pedals and levers).
I have found that stripping or simplifying some changes actually can generate more possibilities, even frees up pedals or levers, which can then be used for "missing" changes previously "lost" in the effort to unite two completely separately developed tunings or add "funny"-changes like I chose to in my efforts to add the Speedy West changes to my setup.

E9th-U, B6th-U / Bb6th-U or E6/9th(13th) should be viewed and plaid as a tuning of it's own (ONE tuning), not as a "this-and-that"-tuning. Only then, does it open to it's full potential, IMHO.



... J-D.

[Jim Pitman]

I'm a proponent of E9/B6 universal. I started out on a student model S10 then pruchased a U12 in 1984 and have never looked back.

To be fair to the D10 guys I can think of a minor negative point if you are in love with the 10 string C6 tone. The B6 is a step down so puts out less high end overtone. Also, I believe there is one case where a wound string is used on the U12 whereas an unwound string is used for the equivalent C6 interval.

There are many things I'd miss about a U12 if I were to change to a D10.

[ed packard]

13 series short form.

The lines of the treble staff are C,E,G,B,D,F,A. These are also the spaces in the bass cleff

Using C as the chord root, we have C,E,G = 1,3,5 = C chord….C,E,G,B = 1,3,5,7 = CM7, etc. till we get to CM13 for C,E,G,B,D,F,A.

Using E as the chord root, we have E,G,B,…E,G,B,D = Em,…Em7, and so on.

Now use G as the chord root, and get G,B,D,….G,B,D,F = G,…G7, and so on.

So we have the odd interval based chords as the lines of the treble staff, and their adjacent intervals intervals are on adjacent strings.

Where are the treble staff space notes? C,Eb,G,Bb,D,F,A = 1,b3,5,b7,9,11,13 = Cm13.
Move this up 2 frets and get D,F,A,C,E,G,B = Dm13. Break this up into chords using each string/note as the chord root and we get the even interval chords with each chord root being in a treble staff space.

The result is:
All the chords needed to harmonize the major scale are within 2 frets.
The sheet music may be read directly onto the strings…each string is a line using CM13, and each string is a space using Dm13.

If we make EM13 a musical neck (CM13 on fret 8), using string 11 as the root we have the advantages listed above.

If we use a basic 12 or 14 string E9/A6/B6 Universal tuning setup (necks I, IV, V = E,A,B) and add the 13 series to it with 2 pedals, we have it all on one 4 or 5 pedal 5 lever PSG, and the 13 series structures resolve back to E9 when the changes are released.

This can also be done using C6, or A6, or B6 as the open tuning and making the 13 series using those roots.

For anyone interested, I will send an EXCEL spreadsheet that shows my setup (actually the first 4 pedals and the levers used on the BEAST), with an active chord locator, and an inversion chart. The inversion chart is tuning independent. Send an email to me for the chart.

[Pete Burak]

With regard to the differing U12 copedants, one thing I do is arrange my first three strings to 1-D#, 2-G#, 3-F#.
This gives me 2 stacks of G#-F#-E-B on strings 2-5 and 6-9, which, for my brain, makes things alot easier than having the same notes in differing order, and keeps that pesky D# note out of the way up on string 1 until I need it.
This method makes the 6th side of things lay out beautiffly across all 12 strings. String 1 becomes a C# when I need a full blown 6th tuning including both of what C6th guys would call D on top and G on top.

My latest pet peave is... I don't like having open E and open A (and all the rest of the "open" notes/chords) in the "open" position.
I would rather have all those E/A/etc... notes and chords available on fret 1.
Now, not to go all Hankey on ya... but I acquiered an identicle fret board to the one on my steel, and am cutting it up in a way such that I can tune to open Eb/Bb, moving all those non-bar'd chords/notes to fret one, and... The reason I am cutting up the other fret board is to move the fret markers up one fret also, so all my land-marks will still be in the same place.
This week I plan to cut the fretboard into two-fret increments with only 1 fret showing in the middle of each piece.
The new piece, when placed on the existing fret board, moves each fret marker (currently at frets 3,5,7,etc...) one fret higher, and also covers up the old fret marker underneath. The one fret in the middle of the new pieces lines up exactly with the fret underneath.
Most of my gigs these days are Jam-Band and there are too many songs in E and A to waste those open positions. Now I can bar them, use vibrato, slide to/from open-E and open-A without lifting the bar, etc.
It's an "experiment" (easily reversable if it don't work out).
Funn Stuff!
pete b.

[ed packard]

Good move Pete. I actually tune to Eb/Ab/Bb/Eb13 series, AND use C# AND put the top strings in a C6 order. I don't move the fret markers, But do use a capo for fret 1 when playing Hawaiian and Hillbilly (= the open string chord folk)....keeps the chimes/finger harmonics available.

G# strings sound better when tuned a halftone lower.

[Brad Malone]

The pedal which raises his Bb to B was his MAIN-pedal on "F#9th" - he often held it down for an extended time period. It effectively turns the neck into E13th. E13th was a common tuning back then<<

Raising the G#'s to A effectively turns the neck into a D13th tuning if one lowers their third string from G# to F# and their fourth string E to D but they would have to have a 12 string steel to get Speedy's string 9 and 10 if they want to keep their 1st string F# and 2nd string Eb..also they would have to eliminate their 8th string E that the regular E9th tuning has. Zane Beck raises his 4 string C# to D with a knee lever so he effectively has 9 of his bottom strings in the same sequence as Speedy's F#9th..one tone lower of course.

[Pete Burak]

Some other Copedant changes I like for S12U are...

Lower string 12 from B to A on the A pedal (this is super easy to try by just swapping the exisitng raise rod from the string 12 raising changer finger to the lowering changer finger - No additional parts requiered).

Adding a G# to G lever or pedal for all three G#'s.

[David Wright]

Is there anything else but a S~12??? tuned to Bb 6th???
I hear some have 2 necks or more wonder if you have to be twice as smart to play D~10?? ...

[Richard Sinkler]

I hear some have 2 necks or more wonder if you have to be twice as smart to play D~10?? .

No David. We just have to work twice as hard to make it sound as good as you do on that S12.

After 39+ years, I am not about to switch over to a single 12, but if I was starting fresh today, I would probably go the uni route.

[Ben Rubright]

Ed:

Consider me interested, and then some.

Thanks,

Ben Rubright

[ed packard]

Ben;

Keep an eye on your in box...and tell me what you think.

Edp