The Steel Guitar Forum

Although I'm rather new at the steel guitar refurbishing game, Id like to start this thread on the issue of lubricating steel guitars, and share my thoughts whats good, bad, right and wrong.
We all have good ideas to share and Id like ask all of you what your opinion is. This stems from another recent event where I drove for 2 hours to look at a major brand name steel guitar that had a reasonable asking price put on it. I went with cash in hand with every intention of coming home with this entire rig. In the end I didn't and the owner was rather insulted at my offer. I tried to be very polite about my assessment of the guitar, but to no avail.
The guitar in question is 15 years old, has 8 pedals and 6 levers. After inspecting the mica, and the general condition of the guitar, we proceeded to turn it over and check all of the mechanisms. Petroleum based lubricants, as well as WD-40, were used on this guitar for several years, and were no way strategically applied. They were applied to places that needed no lubricating at all. 8 of the fingers, when activated took more than 2 seconds to ALMOST return to the neutral position. 3 Fingers didn't work at all. Upon inspecting the changer closely, contaminants had collected en mass..and virtually rendered the guitar unplayable. IMHO, this is definitely a case where the PROPER way to address this would be a complete teardown, thorough cleaning, and reassembly. This would be the only way to REALLY be sure that it would function upon rebuilding...Am I wrong here??
A beautiful example of a high end steel, which will probably show up here for sale. It looks great in pictures...and now the owner, (If he believes that I was telling the truth) KNOWS that the guitar is unplayable. I offered to do the work and assist him in selling it, after making the offer...He declined.
A recent thread here resulted in an individual receiving a guitar that was not up to his standards. So where do I draw the line?...When it does show up, do I alert my friends here that this is the color of deception, keep my mouth shut and not interfere?...Which..?
I know a lot of you have the knowledge, want to take the time to spend hours hands on, making your guitars "all they can be"...But the majority of the buyers here want a "turn key" guitar...Take it out of the case, tune it, be happy...
One of the points im trying to make here is that if your guitar gets very little playing time compared to the touring pros, lube your guitar lightly in the right places..The changer fingers, the roller nut (You should always check this when changing strings, if it rolls...bypass it) take note of the locations in the lever and pedal stops, and activating mechanisms where metal rubs metal...Lube it lightly with non petro based oils. The newer synthetics are marvelous examples...WD-40...For those of you that didn't know stands for "WATER DISPLACEMENT 40... (recipes 1-39 obviously didn't cut it )
..It is bio-degradable, non-toxic...and eventually...turns to GUM.
I have settled on what i believe is the best lubricant to use in my shop. Exxon 2380 Turbine engine oil is a synthetic lightweight lubricant which contains no paraffin wax. It can be purchased at any FBO (Fixed Base Operation) that serves private jet aircraft. It costs 17.00(+-) per quart, comes in a green can, and will last you the rest of your natural life Please post your thoughts...Mickey

Mickey, great post about lubes and also very informative what you said about the ill-fated guitar you looked at.

When I get my shop up and running I might well go out to the airport and get a quart of the synthetic oil.
In the meantime I have a hard time shaking what the tried and true builders have told us. There the consensus seems to be Tri-Flo. It can't be all that bad when Bruce uses this on his ZumSteels. Thing about triflo is that it seems to be quite impossible to get hold of unless I order it from the US. I am being told by factory supply places that this lube is discontinued and has been replaced by more effective types.

In the meantime, I have found ATF (Automatic Transmission Fluid)to be very effective on my guitar. Of course I am able to monitor it closely, so it isn't likely comparable to a guitar that's being gigged, seeing it sits in my shop all the time.
In the past year, since this guitar was built, I saw the need to lubricate the changer once. I had a sticky finger, likely due to the white grease I used when assembling the changer. I learned something here: White grease hardens a wee bit, enough to make things sticky.

After a small amount of ATF on the finger, it loosened up, and I can still see the oil working, as black oil is now starting to creep UP to the top of the aluminum finger and I wipe it off periodically.

I agree with you: WD-40 is a no-no. It's active ingredient being fish oil turns gummy and sticky in no time. I proved this to myself while working in the gravel pit; even on heavy equipment, WD was good for only a short time, then it started working the other way and actually seized up the moving parts. The 2 things we found WD good for was hand cleaner and parts cleaner. I have also learned that it is an excellent cutting fluid when milling aluminum parts.

Like you, I am still new at this, but reading threads like these we can sure learn a lot.

A recent thread here resulted in an individual receiving a guitar that was not up to his standards. So where do I draw the line?...When it does show up, do I alert my friends here that this is the color of deception, keep my mouth shut and not interfere?...Which..?

If it were me, I'd notify the potential buyer via PM or email, not publicly. If I knew it to be a flagrant deception, I'd go public.

If I were the buyer, I'd certainly appreciate the info!!!

Wouldn't you?

I use Tri-Flow, a PTFE/Teflon and light oil mix. After lubing as per my web page linked below, my steel played a lot better than when it was new even. No more uneven drag on the pedals even when actuating them slowly by hand. I have no idea if this is the best stuff to use but after a few years everything still works freely and no accumulation of gunk anywhere.

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Lubricate/Lubricate.html


Greg

Teflon based lubricants can usually be purchased in bicycle shops. That's all I've used for years. One small bottle has lasted me a long, long time.

By the way, I have found two good uses for WD-40:

> It makes a good hand cleaner when you've been working on something greasy and oily.

> It is good at cutting through all the muck and grime caused previously by using it as a "lubricant".

I was suprised to have Paul Franklin Sr. recommend motor oil to lube my Franklin. It's 21 years old and has a fair amount of gunk built up in areas I assume were "oiled" prior to my ownership of her. Who am I to argue?

I've been following Greg's advice of Tri-Flow but I do need to strip-er-down, clean, lube and reassemble.
At that time I will use Tri-Flow.

Mickey, I totally agree. I use Tri-Flow, but a lightweight, clean, oil or synthetic lubricant works fine when applied sparingly to the right spots. BTW - I can't remember the last time I went into a bicycle shop that didn't have Tri-Flow.

I think that one of the reasons I'm OK with buying older used steels is that I have forced myself to learn how to work on them. I get a lot of satisfaction out of it, but it does take a lot of time and not everybody is gonna do this.

Strictly hypothetically - I think we have the right to point out a for-sale item that is materially not as it is described if we have hard knowledge. To me, making sure we really know there's a problem goes to our reputation, so unless I was damned sure I knew what I was talking about, I'd shut up. But if I was sure something was significantly not as-described, I'd probably start with an email to b0b, and if I saw someone getting suckered in, I'd probably say something directly.

My attitude is this - if anybody is thinking about trying to foist a guitar with hidden problem(s) on someone here without appropriate disclosure, it should be with the understanding that if someone here knows about the problem(s) - and I mean really knows, for example a former owner of the guitar with, let's say, a repaired but serious wood crack - there's a reasonable chance the seller will be ratted out before a sale can be made. Harsh? Maybe, but that's an important consequence of insisting on caveat emptor. My opinion.

Brian, right, who are we to argue with a builder like Paul Franklin Sr.? He must have been doing something right, considering the level of guitar he puts out.

If I am not mistaken, Al Brisco, a very experienced player/re-builder uses and recommends #30 motor oil and to use it quite liberally. There sure are different ways to skin this cat

I don't know what he says now, but years ago Billy Cooper recommended Super Oil, from Liquid Wrench. That's all I've used on my Sho-Bud for 26 years, and I've never had any problems with anything gumming up.

I'm guilty of usin WD 40 at one time till I saw first hand the result and now use TriFlow. I've got a small pen size bottle with a needle type applicator so it goes where I want it to. A little at string changin time goes a long way.

The folks at Derby recommended that I use Super Oil on the Derby guitar. I've continued using it on the other brands that I've owned (very sparingly of course) and so far,...no problems.

Here a re just a few examples of the changers that have come through my shop...And these are the ones in the "best" shape...

1

My psg is new, so I have no need to start throwing lubricants at it for a while.

However, one thing I have learned over the years of working with things mechanical is that far more problems are caused by over-lubrication (even with the right lubricant) than are caused by using the wrong type.

When oiling *anything*, be very spare with it.

I've been using Tri-flow for as long as I can remember ... although I have used light weight sewing machine oil on pedal rod connectors etc on occasion. I always use tri-flow for the changers and rollers etc though.

Bob R. - b0b needs to be apprised of the situation before a sale is made. After the fact, there's not a lot he can do but pull a seller's forum membership if he thinks there's outright fraud.

I disagree that b0b doesn't do what he can - I have seen him close threads before a sale is made and cancel memberships if he thinks someone has committed outright fraud. He has also laid down rules about how we are to conduct ourselves on someone else's For Sale thread. The basic rule is - if you don't have an interest in the deal, stay out of it. It's really very simple.

So I think the first line of defense if we see something out-of-line is to email b0b. Now, I do agree that if I, hypothetically, had hard information about a major discrepancy with an ad, I would probably follow that up with some type of direct communication if that email didn't result in action. But IMO, this should be reserved for the most extreme situation where I'm absolutely sure of my facts and I see a potential problem going down. For me, this is strictly hypothetical - I don't recall ever seeing an ad for which I had this type of hard information that needed to be presented.

The other thing is that each of us has to make that decision for ourselves - I don't think anybody should exhort anybody else to cry foul on something like this. In fact, I think we should be very, very sure of ourselves before we say a word.

I've worked on very complex machines since the early '70s, and for several years I tried many highly recommended lubricants to find one that did the job AND kept doing the job for a long time, AND didn't dry out, or gum up, over time (like petroleum products do). When someone suggested I try TriFlow I didn't think it would fit the bill. BUT it DID. It lasts a very long time...years...and provides excellent continuous lubrication the whole time...even in 800 rpm shaft bushings. The stuff is amazing!

The catch is that you have to shake it up frequently, while applying it, to keep the teflon particles suspended in the carrier fluid. That fluid will evaporate leaving the teflon behind.

One caveat...
I have found that if you use TriFlow on a previously oiled device the teflon doesn't get to penetrate to where it's needed. In these cases I flush the surfaces with alcohol, if possible, then blow out the joint with compressed air. Judicious placement of paper towels keeps the splatter contained. Works well.

There are many products that contain PTFE/Teflon which are probably excellent as well. I've stuck with TriFlow simply because it does what I need done, so there's no reason to change.

I HIGHLY recommend it for steel guitars, or any similar mechanism.

BTW...IMHO, I agree with Mr. Dave about our involvement with bad deals. The reputation of the members, and the Forum itself, are at stake.

I use Lucas Gun Oil. Before I started using that product I used Super Oil by Gunk.
Jerry

Rem oil w/teflon & Tri-flow are what I use.

I am using a little 30w non-detergent motor oil with Singer Sewing Machine oil. Don't you want to be sure you get the right Tri Flo oil? I think there are some types that may be a perafin base.

You can usually flush a changer in the guitar by taking a spray can of automotive electronics parts cleaner and letting it run through the changer. It usually disolves every thing.Some changers will have to be removed though. Finish up with Tri-Flow.

I'm certainly not a steel guitar mechanic,but,I've always had good luck w/ the valve oil horn players use. Been using it for over 30 years with no problems. Edited to add: Bud Carter also recommends 30W motor oil so Mr. Franklin & Mr. Brisco are in good company.

Source for tri-flo, McMaster Carr also has it...Bill

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/se ... m_search=1

Jerry Roller wrote:I use Lucas Gun Oil. Before I started using that product I used Super Oil by Gunk.
Jerry

Yes, you're right--the maker is Gunk, "makers of" Liquid Wrench.