The Steel Guitar Forum

The Starter is a very popular entry level steel made by Carter.

It is both cherished by many for what it is: an entry level guitar to get you "started", and despised by others who feel it is not made of sturdy enough components to handle the rigors of everyday playing for very long.

Rather than complain about inferior parts and design, I started this thread in order to help those who own Starters and are looking for answers.

I was recently emailed about the ViceGrip® I used to fortify the LKL on mine. This was from a thread entitled Make Shift. I'll post pics as requested soon.

Another quick fix is replacing the stop screw with a stronger one that doesnt slip or wear as easily.

Members please feel free to post pics and provide solutions to common problems encountered with the Starter after its been in the race a while.

Starters feel free to post questions too!

Clete

Clete, the absolute fail proof way to make a solid lever stop on the Carter Starter is to add a pull rod on one of the bell cranks and run it to a locked changer finger, put a tuning nut on it and adjust it for where you want the lever to stop. It is rock solid.
Jerry

My biggest problem with the starter other than the lkl stop was the rkl. I could tune it to lower to Bb, or to lower to C with the A pedal pressed but not both. if I wanted the minor chord from the A&B pedals with the RKL I had to tune it for that and then it wasn't useable in any other way. Has anybody out there found a solution for that? that would probably be most helpful to starter players out there!

When I had a Starter, Doug Jones added a piece of L-bracket, threaded for an adjustable stop screw. Worked great - a definite improvement over the wishy-washy LKL stop screw that came standard on the steel. Wish I had a picture, but I sold it a few years back.

I recently repaired a Starter for the local Guitar Center. The one odd thing I noticed is that the pull rods for the lowers are run over the cross bar making it so that the only useable position for the pull rods is the first hole on the bell crank. This I feel accounts for the excessively long lever throw on the LKR. Fashioning two new pull rods and bending them in a sort of "Z" pattern would allow the use of the holes farther from the body and may help remedy this situation.

Let's remember that all modifications done on the Starter, are done on a guitar which wasn't designed to be modified at all.

Jesse Adams wrote:...the rkl. I could tune it to lower to Bb, or to lower to C with the A pedal pressed but not both....!

Jesse,
This is common to many steels, not just the Starter, that don't have split tuning.
On my Mullen, I added an extra pull rod to tune the second positon (no pedals) by adding a raise tuner. This way both positions are in tune. I haven't tried it on the Starter, but I bet someone else has.


Bryan and Jerry,

Thanks for the stop fortification ideas. I just used a short wood screw in addition to the original.

I still haven't got pics of the ViceGrip, but basically all its doing is fortifying the LKL so that it doesn't bend. The stop works fine there, but the lever itself had a tendency to bend right where it folds. The ViceGrip holds it tight, and the weight makes it feel a little more stable. I was afraid it would snap if I kept bending it back and forth. It's easy to put on and take off too, if you need to travel.

Clete

Hi Clete,

Cool thread, it was me that emailed you about the LKL and the Vice Grip.

What's confuses me is:
do you mean vice grip as in the standard locking pliers kind aka mole grips.



or do you mean something more fancy like this



Please excuse my mechanical ignorance!

Cheers, Robbie

The knee lever stop is a problem on the CS because it is simply a roundheaded screw in the body, if the lever hits anywhere other than dead center, it slips off causing too much travel. It's a very simple fix to put a small flat piece of aluminum there held by two flathead screws. I've done in on many of my student's guitars- while the knee still has some flop to it, it has a solid stop and won't bend any more.

What can be done about decreasing the LKR travel?

I could never get comfortable with the thing. I moved the pedals and inch and a half to the right, extended the legs, fitted Emmons pedals and an Emmons pick-up. I was about to build a new pedal rack to replace the original which bends every time any pedal is depressed when I just got fed up with messing with the thing and put it back in its case.

And it will probably stay there for many years.

Robbie Roberts wrote:...do you mean vice grip as in the standard locking pliers kind aka mole grips.

...

Robbie,

Im a simple man, and I simply meant the former standard locking pliers.

Those other parts look interesting to me though! Maybe I'm not that simple, ha. I'm already thinking of uses for them. I suppose even C-clamps might work in a pinch I know, that was a terrible joke.

I'll try and get some pics up soon, but the Starter is out of town at our rehearsal space and we haven't rehearsed in a while Oh well, just gives me more time to practice!

Cheers,
Clete

John Scanlon wrote:What can be done about decreasing the LKR travel?

Great question, my LKR is traveling like crazy.
What would be the remedy?

Kresimir Plantaric wrote:...my LKR is traveling like crazy.
What would be the remedy?

I'd cash in it's frequent flyer miles and take a vacation.

Seriously, lever travel is dependent on what pulls it makes, what guage strings are pulled and the rod position on the bellcrank and changer. Since the guage (~.014 and ~.030W) and pulls (lowering E's to Eb on 4 and 8 ) are typically consistent, it's the rod position and stop screw which must be altered. Generally, the further the rod is from the body, the less travel required. I've never repositioned rods on the Starter, so I'm not able to provide the remedy, just the concept. Maybe someone has?

Clete

Kresimir Plantaric wrote:

John Scanlon wrote:What can be done about decreasing the LKR travel?

Great question, my LKR is traveling like crazy.
What would be the remedy?

I have the same problem. Al Brisco advised that no adjustment was possible ("The simple answer is No, the action is what it is.").

I'm thinking I might try a bit of re-engineering when I get some tme to look at it properly.

this is a good idea for a thread, well done.

I'll try and keep it positive and constructive but my problem seems a bit different than others. My left knee levers bent towards the front of the guitar making it impossible to hold tuning
It wasnt the stop, it was the lever flange itself I think. The modification suggested by, and offered to be performed by, Carter guitars themselves, was to replace the knee lever with a stronger peice of metal.

I was told by Carter that my guitar was one of the earlier ones and that newer ones didnt have this problem. lucky me I guess. packing slip said packed in year 2000.

I didnt do the mod, nor have carter do it. I simply returned the guitar to musiciansfriend for a full refund and found a used pro steel instead.

Clete Ritta wrote:The Starter is a very popular entry level steel made by Carter...

Unfortunately, you're right, and moreso because it's been marketed so prominently by Musicians Friend. But I wonder how many people it's discouraged from the pedal steel for ever. To my mind it's a poorly-designed instrument. The pedals are just L-bar, the pedal bar is flimsy and bends every time you depress the pedals, the pedals and knee levers are inconveniently spaced, it's rarely high enough without buying their adapter pack, the pickup is poor. At $750 without a case it looks like a bargain, but a newcomer would be much better off buying a used non-entry-level PSG.
After playing non-pedal for 40 years, I bought a Carter Farter when they first came out, as I couldn't afford the $2,000 for a real PSG. (There was no Steel Guitar Forum at that time.) It soon went back in the box, and I bought a used Sho-Bud. The difference was like night and day, and my pedal steel playing took off.
Every so often I pull it out, thinking to myself that it can't possibly be as bad as I remember it. I start tinkering with it, and, as I said in a previous post, I've changed the pedals and the pickup, but I always end up dispairing of the thing. The mechanism is okay, and I've many times thought of building a completely new PSG using the Carter mechanism, but it's probably a waste of time, as you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Ben Jones wrote:...My left knee levers bent towards the front of the guitar making it impossible to hold tuning...

Ben,
This was actually the original intent of my topic. My Starter did the same thing, and Im sure countless others had similar experiences. It would bend either way to the point I was afraid it would eventually snap, which I assume has happened before My fix? Get a cheap vice grip pictured above in this thread, and clamp the knee lever at the hinge. This reinforces the weak link. If it doesn't bend, it works fine. Problem solved. Next? The pedal board flex. It never bothered me that much, but how hard could it be to get some rebar and a few C brackets and reinforce the wood? Granted I've not tried this, its just an idea for a simple fix.
On a positive note: I always thought the Starter pickup sounded fine, and the tuning pegs stayed in tune well. I'm 6'4 and managed ok with the leg height, pedal position and spacing just fine. That's just me.

Alan Brookes wrote:...I wonder how many people it's discouraged from the pedal steel for ever. To my mind it's a poorly-designed instrument...

Alan.
I think readers on the forum know how you feel about these guitars.
This thread is not meant to discourage people from getting a Starter, or compare it to any other guitar. It's for those of us who have one already, and are trying to make it work better, nothing more. No Starter bashing please. Sell or give yours away so that you can let it go.

...Rather than complain about inferior parts and design, I started this thread in order to help those who own Starters and are looking for answers. ...

Specific mechanical complaints and easy solutions is the topic.

Clete

Clete, Congrats on the positive / helpful thread.

Alan, The SGF existed several years before the CS.

Clete Ritta wrote:

Ben Jones wrote:...My left knee levers bent towards the front of the guitar making it impossible to hold tuning...

Ben,
This was actually the original intent of my topic. My Starter did the same thing, and Im sure countless others had similar experiences. It would bend either way to the point I was afraid it would eventually snap, which I assume has happened before My fix? Get a cheap vice grip pictured above in this thread, and clamp the knee lever at the hinge. This reinforces the weak link. If it doesn't bend, it works fine. Problem solved. Next? Clete

OH, it didnt sound like the same problem to me from the other descriptions but maybe it is. Glad to hear that a vice grip can be a quick fix maybe others will be helped by that.

at the time I bought it, the Carter Starter was the most expensive instrument I had ever purchased and I felt I was taking a huge gamble on an instrument I'd never seen a real life example of and didnt know if'd be able to play. when the guitar arrived it had a cracked neck. I sent the guitar to John Fabien at his suggestion and he repaired the neck for me and sent me back the guitar. it wasnt until two weeks later I discovered the knee lever problem and my teacher confirmed the guitar was useless. Alan is correct in that this guitar discouraged me almost altogether fom continuing with the instrument. Fabien wanted me to send the guitar back to him again so he could replace the knee lever with sturdier metal, but by that time I wasnt up for it, i just wanted a guitar that played, so I managed to get my money back from musicians friend instead. John was bummed saying "someone else is just gonna get that broken guitar again from musicians friend". John said they had corrected this design problem on later versions of the guitar. Its too bad so many encontered this problem...having a highly visible entry level pedal steel IS good for converting new players and the Carter crew seemed like genuinely nice and good people. I never woulda plunked down $2K+ for a new pro model so this was my chance at entree into this obscure and prohibitively expensive instrument.

If my teacher hadnt found me a Rittenberry Nash ltd for $900 I wouldnt have continued tho.

Joey Ace wrote:...Alan, The SGF existed several years before the CS.

You're right. Bobby Lee's date for joining the Forum was 1996, so that must be when it started.
Maybe it would be better for me to say that at the time I bought the Starter I wasn't aware of the existence of the Forum, so I wasn't able to get other people's opinions of it.

It seems to me that a lot of the criticism of this instrument is based on earlier models.

Mine is relatively new (only purchased a few weeks ago and presumably one of the last that were made) and other than the LKR travel issue, the rest of it is fine. I can't foresee the levers bending and the pedal support bar, while it does flex slightly, seems to be man enough for the job asked of it.

On the upside, I'm amazed at how well it stays in tune (this is 'desert' country and we have big swings in temperature and humidity, so I was expecting problems) and this is one of a very few instruments I could find this side of the pond at a price I could afford.

If I had any real complaint, it would be the so-called gig bag! This really isn't up the job of protecting any instrument, never mind one that costs into four figures and there is no way I would use it when I start gigging. My first post-arrival purchase was a decent case.

I just hope it gets here before my first outing.

the gig bag was a marketing mistake.
It would have actaully been better to include NOTHING than that flimsy nylon duffle bag they called a gig bag.

I still sell Carter Starter cases. They are new so I am not allowed by Forum rules to quote the price but if anyone is interested you can email me at rollermusic@cox.net There was always an optional case for the Carter Starter and that is what I offer, same mfg. and same case.
Jerry

I played a Carter Starter for about a year, never had a problem with the guitar. I did have a hard shell case that I got from Jerry Roller. It stayed in tune rather well, but I did not carry it out very much. I traded mine off recently. I do have an arm rest that I had made for it. If interested in arm rest e-mail me @ r.howard6879@cox.net
Roy H.

Clete Ritta wrote:

Robbie Roberts wrote:...do you mean vice grip as in the standard locking pliers kind aka mole grips.

...

Robbie,

Im a simple man, and I simply meant the former standard locking pliers.

Thanks for clearing that up Clete! I bought some little 4" long ones and put them on in the best place I could think of. This has made a massive difference to the performance of the LKL so far, it feels much more solid and precise (I'd already swapped the round head screw for a flat one). It makes the lever hang to the right but is fine once my leg is in. Thanks for the tip!

As for LKR, I managed to shorten the travel "a bit" by adjusting the stop but there's only so much you can do and still keep some slack in the pull rod. I've just learned to live with the long travel as I've never played any other PSG and therefore don't really know what I'm missing on a pro one!

I'll try and post a pic of the LKL vicegrip mod aswell soon to see if it's the same position as Clete's one.