The Steel Guitar Forum

Slovenian players love Promat, here is another S-10 for a customer from Slovenia...








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Can`t wait to get it.

This is my guitar!
For now still in progres but it should be done in 2 weeks.

For everyone who is deciding to get a new PSG, do not forget to conntact a true master of design and gentleman mr. Dusan Papic and ask for it...


To all steel players,
all my best,...




P.S: Pozdrav i tebi Damir

hi there Blaz,

I just spoke to Mr. Papic another day and he said he was finishing your guitar and doing some fine tuning, he also said guitar has a tone to die for...I`m sure you will be very happy with your new instrument...

Db

pozdrav tebi i tvom tati kao i cijelom Pohorje Express bendu...

Blaz Patty wrote:...For everyone who is deciding to get a new PSG, do not forget to conntact a true master of design and gentleman mr. Dusan Papic and ask for it.

Not to knock Promat guitars (I've never played or heard one), but the true masters of design in this case are Ron Lashley Sr and the Big E.

.....Mr Papic has merely copied the Emmons P/P.

....Mr Papic has merely copied the Emmons P/P.

true...and I`m glad he did...

Db

Tony Glassman wrote:

Blaz Patty wrote:...For everyone who is deciding to get a new PSG, do not forget to conntact a true master of design and gentleman mr. Dusan Papic and ask for it.

Not to knock Promat guitars (I've never played or heard one), but the true masters of design in this case are Ron Lashley Sr and the Big E.

.....Mr Papic has merely copied the Emmons P/P.

If so,... then a true master of copying

However,... even if it is an Emmons copy in every nano-inch (which is not quite true), you have to have a lot of courage, self confidence and most of all a lot of knowledge to do it right. To do a masterpiece the way mr. Papič is doing it and I respect that as well! I am proud that I have ordered one...

In the end he is and will be a gentleman and what he really is.

All my best and thanks on responce Tony and Damir.

P.S: Tony what is your gear?

Nothing against Mr. Papic, but I felt compelled to set the record straight about the design of this instrument.

Building reproductions do require that a person has skill, knowledge and technical ability....but not necessarily imagination. I'm sure they are great guitars, though I can't help but wonder how the Lashleys feel about'em.

If anyone wants to bother to do a search on Promat, they'll see that this "OMG IT'S A COPY OF AN EMMONS!" panic was hashed and rehashed already ad nauseum. The record hardly needs to be "set straight". It's not like it's really hard to see that Emmons-style fretboard on there.

I hand it to Damir for his gracious reply despite having already been through all this too many times before.

From what I understand about the Promat, yes it is basically a P/P remake, but every part is meticulously handmade and there are some modern improvements, is that right Damir? I have heard some pretty great players say that the Promat was a "better Emmons P/P than the Emmons P/P." That's pretty high praise. I'm sure all the loyal P/P fans will argue with that.

Didn't I read somewhere too that the p/p patents are expired? If it bugs Emmons (Lashley), let them produce one as good... but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Jim Phelps wrote:If anyone wants to bother to do a search on Promat, they'll see that this "OMG IT'S A COPY OF AN EMMONS!" panic was hashed and rehashed already ad nauseum. The record hardly needs to be "set straight". It's not like it's really hard to see that Emmons-style fretboard on there.

I hand it to Damir for his gracious reply despite having already been through all this too many times before.

From what I understand about the Promat, yes it is basically a P/P remake, but every part is meticulously handmade and there are some modern improvements, is that right Damir? I have heard some pretty great players say that the Promat was a "better Emmons P/P than the Emmons P/P." That's pretty high praise. I'm sure all the loyal P/P fans will argue with that.

Didn't I read somewhere too that the p/p patents are expired? If it bugs Emmons (Lashley), let them produce one as good... but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Hey sorry to get your dander up, but regardless of the fact we've been through this many times before, I was just stating that he is not the designer of that guitar. I was not trying to belittle Mr Papic.

That said and great guitar though it may be, I still think it's kind of tacky to almost completely copy another company's design (including fretboard logo) and market it as your own.

Though most all PSGs are derivative of just a few different historical guitars, there are usually enough mechanical and/or cosmetic differences to make them unique instruments. I don't think that's the case w/ Promat.

Good Luck to Slovenia in the World Cup.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but have there not been several SGF members who have experienced trouble when ordering a new `Emmons`?

Arch.

And almost every other steel out there is a copy of a 'Sho-Bud' except for a few, i haven't seen many difference's. Round rod/ square rod/ white fretboard/ red fretboard/ push pull/ all pull/laquer body/ dieboard body, it's all the same stuff, with a twist!
It's hard to reinvent the steel i think anyhow.

'Pro-mat' is a nice Guitar even if it is reminiscent of an 'Emmons'and i'm sure it is a beauty.

Larry Bressington wrote:.......it's all the same stuff, with a twist!

Exactly and IMHO, that's what's missing....the TWIST.

some pretty great players say that the Promat was a "better Emmons P/P than the Emmons P/P."

thanks Jim, I think this itself is a pretty good "twist" if you ask me.

Db

btw. yes, Promat is developing their own fretboard design as well as some major improvments on the p/p mechanism, so I guess we`ll wait and see what happends...

some pretty great players say that the Promat was a "better Emmons P/P than the Emmons P/P."

Seems like there's a lot of people buying push/pulls for such an inferior instrument. Conversely, I've seen Promats take a while to sell.

thanks Jim, I think this itself is a pretty good "twist" if you ask me.

Twist = unusual trait. I don't think either copying or refinement qualifies as a twist.

btw. yes, Promat is developing their own fretboard design as well as some major improvments on the p/p mechanism, so I guess we`ll wait and see what happends...

I think a new fretboard and significant design improvements would help make Promat a more unique brand. I'll be looking forward to that, as well as giving one a test-drive.

Tony Glassman wrote: Hey sorry to get your dander up, but regardless of the fact we've been through this many times before, I was just stating that he is not the designer of that guitar. I was not trying to belittle Mr Papic.

Really? "Just stating that he is not the designer"... you obviously don't know anything about the Promat and how much it is the same OR different than the p/p. If you're not trying to belittle Mr. Papic, then what do you call it?

Tony Glassman wrote: That said and great guitar though it may be, I still think it's kind of tacky to almost completely copy another company's design (including fretboard logo) and market it as your own.

Does that apply to all the 6 string manufactures too, who have copied the Strat, Tele, Les Paul, ES-335, L-5, etc. for the last 60-odd years?

By the way, who appointed you hall monitor anyway?

Tony Glassman wrote: Though most all PSGs are derivative of just a few different historical guitars, there are usually enough mechanical and/or cosmetic differences to make them unique instruments. I don't think that's the case w/ Promat.

Well maybe you should check into one a little closer, and why is it your problem?

Tony Glassman wrote: Seems like there's a lot of people buying push/pulls for such an inferior instrument. Conversely, I've seen Promats take a while to sell.

You might notice I never called the Emmons p/p inferior. I in fact only repeated what I have read a very well-known and respected steeler, who by the way is known as being a die-hard p/p guy, when he checked them out. No I'm not going to name him and drag him into this. You might think for a second or two and realize that more Emmons p/p's sell than Promats for a couple reasons. First, the name. No one would deny that the Emmons name is in itself part of the draw. Second, the average used Emmons p/p can usually be had for a lot less than any new steel, and Promats are not cheap especially by the time they are shipped to the U.S.

thanks Jim, I think this itself is a pretty good "twist" if you ask me.

Tony Glassman wrote:Twist = unusual trait. I don't think either copying or refinement qualifies as a twist.

You saying that a steel guitar built by hand 'way over in Slovenia that has been called a better p/p than the original isn't an unusual trait? I think that right there is more than likely the problem you have with it.

Tony Glassman wrote:I think a new fretboard and significant design improvements would help make Promat a more unique brand. I'll be looking forward to that, as well as giving one a test-drive.

You suggest "significant design improvements" on a guitar you've never even seen? And you think you are being objective by that? And how can you on one hand knock the Promat for being "an exact copy of the Emmons" (which it isn't anyway but you think it is) and then suggest it needs "design improvements"? You just got done saying more people buy Emmons, and that the Promat is an exact copy, but now the Promat needs to be improved and the Emmons doesn't, even being "exactly alike" to you? You don't even make sense. Whatever.

I'm done with this. I just wanted some fairness to Promat and don't like BIASED BS.

guys, it is just a guitar , made to play music and enjoy, not to argue about it, some people like it and some don`t ... don`t get upset about things that are not important (is it as good as Emmons, as nice as Emmons etc..) ...if you like it, play it and if you don`t like it, than don`t play it..play your Emmons and don`t worry about the Promat...

Db

Tony Glassman wrote:Nothing against Mr. Papic, but I felt compelled to set the record straight about the design of this instrument.

Building reproductions do require that a person has skill, knowledge and technical ability....but not necessarily imagination. I'm sure they are great guitars, though I can't help but wonder how the Lashleys feel about'em.

I've never read a claim of "imagination" with respect to Promat guitars. Owners of them are well aware that they are based on the Emmons/Lashley Sr. push-pull design.

Patents expire. That's part of the nature of commerce and technology. My jacket has a zipper. Would you have every jacket manufacturer mention Whitcomb L. Judson in their ads, and pay patent royalties to his heirs? Do zipper manufacturers lack imagination? Probably. But so what?

And what of all the all-pull builders who are using Gene Fields' scissor design in their changer fingers? Nobody is calling them out for a lack of imagination.

Look, I only entered this thread because one member praised Mr Papic's design skills re: the Promat. I've never suggested they are bad instruments. I'm sorry if it bothers b0b and Jim but in my book this guitar is of Ron and Buddy's design.

In response to Jim Phelps:

Really? "Just stating that he is not the designer"... you obviously don't know anything about the Promat and how much it is the same OR different than the p/p. If you're not trying to belittle Mr. Papic, then what do you call it?

Everyone states that they are not "exactly" like an Emmons P/P, but no one has elaborated on just how they differ. I've seen more than a few pix of Promats and they are attractive guitars, but I'm fairly familiar w/ push-pulls and unless the Promat steel guitars have some metaphysical quality which is not able to be captured by modern photographic methods, they are a fairly close Emmons copy in my book.

Are they well made instruments? I have no doubt they are. Do they sound good? Everything I've read suggests that. Have I tried one? No, but I never tried a P/P or Zum until I bought one. So what?

Does that apply to all the 6 string manufactures too, who have copied the Strat, Tele, Les Paul, ES-335, L-5, etc. for the last 60-odd years?

Pretty much. There are a lot of faux strats and LP's. Some are excellent instruments which are just refined versions of these historic predecessors but they usually have some cosmetic feature that make them readily identifiable.(Anderson, Melancon, Heritage). Others are more innovative (PRS Custom 24, Parker Fly).

By the way, who appointed you hall monitor anyway?

Me! I appointed me the "Hall Monitor" of my own opinions, and as far as I know, we're still all allowed to have one.

You saying that a steel guitar built by hand way over in Slovenia that has been called a better p/p than the original isn't an unusual trait? I think that right there is more than likely the problem you have with it.

The fact the Promat is built in Slovenia isn't an unusual design trait, it's just an unusual place for steel guitar manufacturing. No problem from my standpoint. On what basis do you make the assumption I have any "problem" with Slovenian built goods? Why did that even occur to you?

You suggest "significant design improvements" on a guitar you've never even seen? And you think you are being objective by that? And how can you on one hand knock the Promat for being "an exact copy of the Emmons" (which it isn't anyway but you think it is) and then suggest it needs "design improvements"?

First off, I'm not the guy that first brought up the "design improvements" planned by Promat. That was Damir...

btw. yes, Promat is developing their own fretboard design as well as some major improvments on the p/p mechanism, so I guess we`ll wait and see what happens...

and my primary intent was not to knock these instruments:

Not to knock Promat guitars (I've never played or heard one), but the true masters of design in this case are Ron Lashley Sr and the Big E.

.

I just wanted some fairness to Promat and don't like BIASED BS

and do you actually think your comments are unbiased?


I'm out of here.............................

Tony Glassman wrote: and do you actually think your comments are unbiased?

Yes.

Tony Glassman wrote:
I'm out of here.............................

Great.

Actually it's a good debate by you guys. I just hope nobody was offended.

If I may be so bold to take a stab at this one...

I think Buddy Emmons designed the push/pull Emmons and Lashley built it. I'm guessing that he's honored to have his design still going strong.

Another guess... Mr. Papic built a guitar just for himself and it turned out so good that other people wanted one like his. Maybe Emmons push/pulls cost a small fortune in Europe and the ProMat is actually a better buy over there?

One more thing... I have talked to a few people that have actually owned them and they said they are really great guitars.

I also suspect Damir is a gentleman and really nice guy too

Danny Bates wrote:I also suspect Damir is a gentleman and really nice guy too

+1.........Blaz too!

Yes Blaz too!

That is a very beautiful guitar!

I do own a D10 Promat as well as a D10 Emmons Bolt-on PP. Although they are close in design and construction, there are differences in both design and parts. Both are excellent guitars. The action is pretty similar in both but the tone is a little different, both great in their own respects. "IF" I had built both, I would have done a few things differently on both but, there is nothing wrong with either and I have high regards for both. These guys are also right in another respect... Mr. Papic is an excellent and easy person to deal with.

Another guess... Mr. Papic built a guitar just for himself and it turned out so good that other people wanted one like his.

Danny, yes..you are 100% correct, first guitar Mr.Papic built for himself, and then the other players started asking from him to make them a guitar just like his.The best guitar I ever played in my entire life was Mr.Papics original guitar...

thank you all for your kind words, lets go pick some geetar now...