The Steel Guitar Forum

I have a theory question: In a normal major scale the II chord is a minor chord (i.e. in the key of G, the II chord would be A minor). I have noticed that in many songs however, that you can play the II chord as a major (example progression: I IV V - I IImaj V) Why does this work if it the IImaj doesn't fit into the major scale? Another example of a change operating out of the scale is playing a major chord and then turning it into a minor (from A to Aminor). Is it something with "modes" or something? I'm not even sure what a mode is or how to use them. Are you switching scales? How does it work, what are the rules?[/code]

It's a "Circle of Fifths" thing, James, in cases such as you are discussing the II chord sets up and is inevitably followed by a V or VI, continuing the circular pattern as necessary to eventually return to the I.

The minor II scale that you mention reflects the notes of the I major with a simple change of root, and is used in a linear passing "walk-up" or "walk-down" - which brings us to the fact that it IS all about Modes. To make a long story short. choosing a different root within the same major scale yields a different mode, in addition to the two commonly used minor modes all seven possibilities have specific names and properties which I am not about to go on about here, but this information is readily available online and in your local library.

No doubt there are some theory gurus out there with more insight on this phenomena than my wee brain can fathom this morning who can take it from here...

James Maxwell wrote:in the key of G, the II chord would be A minor).

however, .. you can play the II chord as a major (example progression: I IV V - I IImaj V) Why does this work if it the IImaj doesn't fit into the major scale?

In the key of G, that A major chord is called V of V, dominant of the dominant, because it resolves to the dominant (D).
These "secondary dominant" chords are very common. They probably account for most of the notes that are outside of the major scale.

James Maxwell wrote: Why does this work if it the IImaj doesn't fit into the major scale?

Are you switching scales? How does it work, what are the rules?[/code]

I agree with you the diatonic major scale does not work with a 2 major, if you use the 4th degree of the diatonic scale without sharping it a half step.

Example in G: the 2 major is A - C# - E. Unless you're trying to sound bluesy, when the 2 major comes up in a song, play that C (4th degree of G) as C#. The C# is not diatonic to G, but it is to D ...

If you analyze it just a bit further, it's a D scale you're playing (D has an F# and a C#). (also called Mixolydian - a A is the 5 chord of D.

You also need to look at the chord before and after to analyze it proper. Bottom line is what sounds good.

Without getting deep into theory, I think that the "rules" of diatonic harmony and major chord progressions should be viewed as just "guidelines". Although I have to admit, I rely heavily on these guidelines myself!

Sometimes augmented chords, 9th chords, 11th chords, 13th chords, etc., can sometimes sound beautiful in a progression, however they may not always harmonize properly with the key centre of your song as a whole. By playing a II major chord, yes you may be breaking out of the songs key centre, but you are giving that chord more distinction by putting more focus on the key/scale that the individual chord is based on. It doesn't seem very often that writers will break away from the "rules" of diatonic harmony, and when they do I sometimes have a hard time understanding it myself. Jazz musicians and classical musicians will often break out of the major scale into the chromatic scale to access notes outside of the key they are in. If done tastefully, it's genious! Why can't us country musicians do it too?

Bottom line is that you have to trust your ear. Rather than trying to put rules on everything, I try to view diatonic harmony as a set of guidelines. Just my opinion! What do you guys think?

In a normal major scale the II chord is a minor chord

Then that would be a ii chord, not a II chord, right?

Swapping out minors for majors and majors for minors is a common chord substitution. The share 2 out of 3 notes which makes it an easy substitution. I don't think it is anymore complicated than that.

Earnest Bovine wrote: In the key of G, that A major chord is called V of V, dominant of the dominant, because it resolves to the dominant (D).
These "secondary dominant" chords are very common. They probably account for most of the notes that are outside of the major scale.

This.

Changing the ii7 to II7 creates a stronger need for movement to the V7 which resolves to I.

Another example is in a minor key. The v7 in a natural minor key is a minor chord--very weak, no sense of resolution to the i chord. What is typically done is to use either the harmonic minor or the melodic minor to create the dominant V7 chord (the 7th degree of these minor scales is the major 3rd degree of our V chord). It also gives you viidim, which can serve almost the same function as the dominant V7 in resolving back to i.

I don't know what level you are playing at or how complex of an answer you are looking for here so I'm not going to attempt to go too far into theory. I'm not above needing some help with scales over chords, modes, etc. myself. I had a very prominant steel player tell me that this is the area we are all working on so I don't feel alone. There was a famous lead guitar player, (I don't remember his name now), that said something about knowing the rules of music so he would know which rules he was breaking. To me it is about what you are trying to express. A song with just I, IV, and V chords sometimes sprinkled with a few ii, iii, and vi chords, can get rather boring and they all start to sound alike. Listen to a II, V, I chord progression. You can feel the tension as the II chord pulls you to be resolved by going to the V chord and then the I. We all can hear that the V chord wants to take you to the I. The II chord is the V chord of the V chord for the key you are in. Of course if you don't want to go to the V chord then you might want to change that II chord into a ii chord and go in another direction. I would like to see more divirsity in what is being written and what we are playing. Also I often think the answers you get about theory are probably way outside of what players are actually thinking while they are playing.

Lee has it right.

The II minor you are talking about is usually expressed as ii (lower case Roman numeral II)

In 'nashville notation' it would be a 2-.

A reminder that I often use:
is to look at, or eyeball, the 1 position, the 5, the 4, the 6, and the 2. All that with no pedals or knees. Now I have become familiar with the most likely chords to come along, and I have a neighborhood to work within.

Any of those chords could be major, or minor, or other chord extensions.

Chord progressions move from scale to scale and these scales may be defined by different modes of different major scales. Even a simple 3 chord country song 1,4,5. may be 3 different scales with 7 different modes for each scale, at least 21 chord possibilities if you just limit it to the modes of each of those 3 given major scales.

Of course, while the "circle of fifths" thing is applicable and applies to a lot of II (not ii) chords, there's no "rule" that the II being defined as "V of V" means II necessarily resolves to V. Think of the Beatles' "You Won't See Me", where the verse repeatedly goes I-II-IV-I. Or "Eight Days a Week", which does the same.

Another common substitution is to replace the 6 minor and 3 minor with dominant 7 chords. This occurs most often in blues/swing. Classical theory and hymns tend to keep with the diatonic minor 7 chords. The best thing to know about subs is to try them both out and familiarize your ear with the differences and then match what you hear to the style you're trying to convey.

Even a simple 3 chord country song 1,4,5. may be 3 different scales with 7 different modes for each scale, at least 21 chord possibilities if you just limit it to the modes of each of those 3 given major scales.

This might be a little confusing. A I IV V progression will be associated with one major scale, the major scale built on the I, not 3 separate major scales.

What is confusing is IImaj7
My point is that there is no such thing as a (II)maj7 found within the modes. There can only be a (I)maj7 or a (IV)maj7.
As per the example (G)maj to an (A)maj7 to a (D)7 to a (G)maj
The (G)maj would be a mode of (G)maj or (D)maj. and the (A)maj7 would be a mode of (A)maj or (E)maj and it is not a mode of (G)maj.
The short answer is “yes you changed to a mode of a different major scale.”

Bo,

Chords aren't modes. Scales are modes. There is no such thing as a Gmaj7th mode. There is only Ionian mode, dorian mode, etc.

A Gmaj7 is G B D F#. Ionian mode of a G major scale is G A B C D E F#, or a G major scale, but there are other scales and modes that can be played over a Gmaj7th chord. A major scale is always Ionian mode. Dorian mode is a scale built of the second note of a major scale.

In my opinion...you can ruin a good tune by implementing too much "Theory" and "Rules", I agree that you need to rely soley on your ear to guide you on the proper chord to be used. That being said, it's important to understand that if your ear is mature, and experienced enough to hear the difference between a II and a IIm (minor) you'll realize that one is NOT a substitute for the other. I'm sure you all have at some time listened to another musician play some well known song and not play the proper chord at some point in the song...you continue to listen in disbelief, and hope that on the next verse or chorus they will play the correct chord...in my opinion, one wrong chord can ruin an entire song...the good news is, as your ear gets more mature, you'll begin to both hear and play the proper chords...Until then, you can learn the Nashville Number System...it's the best thing since the Flush Toilet.

We can all try to analyze the theory behind what the chord structure is, but the real "why" is simply, that is what sounded good to the songwriter.

This is certainly true and there are no "rules" in music. But knowing the theory behind it is what allows the musician to freely improvise over the chords and song, and not have to guess as to what is going to sound good and knowing how to sound "bad" when the situation calls for it.

The question is not really why is there a II in a progression but seeing that there is, what are my options playing over it.

Bill McCloskey wrote:Bo,

Chords aren't modes. Scales are modes. There is no such thing as a Gmaj7th mode. There is only Ionian mode, dorian mode, etc.

A Gmaj7 is G B D F#. Ionian mode of a G major scale is G A B C D E F#, or a G major scale, but there are other scales and modes that can be played over a Gmaj7th chord. A major scale is always Ionian mode. Dorian mode is a scale built of the second note of a major scale.

I never mentioned a Gmaj7 mode.
I’m pretty sure most of us here know the difference between a mode and a chord and I think most folks understand what I mean when I referred to a chord as a mode to mean a chord derived from that mode.
I was trying not to use words like Ionian, Dorian and etc. but rather in terms of how this could be applied to the PSG
The E9 PSG whether by design or by accident lends itself by use of the A and B pedals to play a major scale across the neck without moving the bar in two different positions.
Which means that you can play all the modes of that major scale in the same manor?
This also means that you can play all the chords derived from the modes within those major scale positions. This goes for and includes any pocket or position that you chose as a choice for a major scale.
Keep in mind the idea here is to play the scale that goes with the chord at the same place you make the chord.
So it is natural for me to think in terms of substituting a major scale and find the chord
within that scale.
For example an A major chord would be played at any A major scale positions.
An A minor chord would be played at the G major scale positions and the A7 chord would be played at any D major scale positions and etc..
Chord….. Major scale
A............A
A7..........D
Am.........G
Amaj7.....E
For the progression in question G to Amaj7 to D7 would fall within these major scales
Chord….. Major scale
G............G
Amaj7.....E
D7..........G

The simple explanation is that even the simplest songs change key, or 'modulate' to use the musical term. Often in popular music the modulation is very short-lived and rarely shows up as a change of key signature on the musical notation stave.
If you are playing a D7 chord in a tune which is basically in the key of C major, the chances are that at that particular moment, you are not playing a "Major Two" chord in C, but a "Five" chord in G.
Five of five as the earlier post said.
A musical theorist would call it "an implied modulation". The obvious clue might be found in the presence of an F sharp note somewhere in the melody- common to G7 and D7, but not part of the C major scale. It's a nice way to add a blue note to a tune.
Another possible explanation might be that the D major chord in C might only be a 'passing chord', leading from one standard, expected, chord to another. Anyone who plays Steel knows that you can play the intermediate fret positions when you slide the bar from one position to another. Passing chords do not count as part of the written key, and semitone runs are perfectly acceptable whatever the key.
They have saved me many times when jamming with jazz bands!
Don't worry about it. Music theory is vital, I agree, but never forget that music theory is derived from music. It's not the other way round.
Cheers
Dave

I never mentioned a Gmaj7 mode.

The (G)maj would be a mode of (G)maj or (D)maj

There is line that confused me. I've never heard it expressed this way. I would have said the G major scale are the same notes as G Ionian mode and D mixolydian mode.

When you say (D)maj I assume you mean a D maj triad, not a Dmaj7 chord, since the chord built from a G major scale would be a D7th chord. If that is the case, you can construct 3 major triads from a G major scale: A Gmaj triad, a Cmaj Triad and a Dmaj Triad.

however across a d7th chord, there are at least 13 different common scales that can be played over that chord and from which a D7th chord can be constructed, only one of which is a mode. See the Aebersold scale syllabus for more info.

Curtis Mason wrote:In my opinion...you can ruin a good tune by implementing too much "Theory" and "Rules", I agree that you need to rely soley on your ear to guide you on the proper chord to be used.

Curtis, music theory is not really going to help the person who has little to no musicality, so that person is probably going to ruin a good tune with or without. It is only theory, it is not music itself. But for players who do have good ears and sensibility, learning music theory would be a huge benefit for them; for one, it helps you to be able to create parts and navigate through some more demanding music immediately. It is the language of musicians and heck, why in the world would someone not want to learn more about the thing which he/she loves?

This perception that knowledge of music theory ruins music and musicians is way off base.

Bill McCloskey wrote:

I never mentioned a Gmaj7 mode.

The (G)maj would be a mode of (G)maj or (D)maj

There is line that confused me. I've never heard it expressed this way. I would have said the G major scale are the same notes as G Ionian mode and D mixolydian mode

Maybe this will clear it up
"The (G)maj7 would be a "chord within" a mode of the (G)maj "scale" or the (D)maj "scale"
I absolutely refuse to plug in words Ionian, Mixolydian and etc..

My real mistake here was joining in on a topic that was to become predictably boring and to that I most assuredly contributed.

Never mind...

I think I'll just go play my guitar for a while.

Dave Boothroyd wrote:Music theory is vital, I agree, but never forget that music theory is derived from music. It's not the other way round.
Cheers
Dave

Well said, well said!