25" scale keyless guitar and string breakage?

Cliff Kane · From: the late great golden state

Hi Folks,
I am curious if a keyless pedal steel guitar with a 25" inch scale (ala Sierra) will break more strings than a 24.25" guitar with a traditional keyhead, assuming both guitars are using typical string gauges (a .011" for the 3rd string).

Thanks!

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

The short answer is yes. That being said, most of the time you won't know it as most of the guitars these days using the quality strings that are currently available don't break them too often- usually they are changed before they break. However in the early 90's there was a time for about 6 months that there was a problem with string quality and I was unable to get a 3rd string up to pitch with the B pedal w/o it breaking. Gerry Walker and I went through the same thing at the same time. He had a new Sierra 25" and I had just finished making a new keyless 25" with LED's in a silk screened fretboard and, after 6 weeks of absolute torture both of us changed scale lengths to 24 1/4 and the problem ceased to exist.

Scott Howard · From: Georgetown, TN, USA

I would like to see the pounds needed for each scale at both notes for the 3rd string. I also would like to know about a .012 on the 3rd as for pounds needed for both notes and both scales.

Quite often in the past I have used a .012 for the high G# and thought it sounded a little better and I never noticed a difference in breakage. This was a 24" scale and I am working on a 25" now but do not have it up and going yet.
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"The Oddball" A MSA Keyless with pedals to the right.

richard burton · From: Britain

25 inch scale, .011 diameter string, G# to A = 33.8 lbs, .012 = 35.3 lbs

Gary Cosden · From: Florida, USA

I have been using .012s for the 3rd string on my 25" Sierra for about a year now with good success. I do break a few now and then when putting them on. Once they are up to pitch they seem to last as long as .011s. I change them between 1 and 2 months and never seem to break strings once they are tuned up to pitch - only the odd .012 while putting it on. They break at either end when they do break but I really do like the tone better so I put up with the breakage.

Scott Howard · From: Georgetown, TN, USA

Richard

Where can one get the formula used to figure the pressure ? Or is there a web link with this type info ? Also how do you figure in total length of the string ? I believe it has been stated that a keyed 24" has a longer string than some keyless 25" . I know this enters in the figures somehow.
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"The Oddball" A MSA Keyless with pedals to the right.

richard burton · From: Britain

http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/NewScalc/

Longer scale length = more tension.

I don't think that a shorter distance from the nut to the tuning head (like on a keyless) would make any difference to the tension required for a given pitch between the nut and the bridge

Glenn Taylor · From: Denver, CO, USA

I don't remember the last time I broke a string on a gig. 25" scale, keyless, tuned to D9. http://www.moyopedalsteelguitars.com/

Gil Berry · From: Westminster, CA, USA

Am playing a Sierra keyless, 25 inch scale. I don't change strings unless I'm gigging, and for health reasons that hasn't happened in over a year. I have NEVER broken a string on the Sierra, and I play (practice) on it at least three hours a day. I used to break the 3rd pretty often on a keyed MSA D12. BUT - and this is a BIG but - the extra scale length is a huge plus for the sound and ability to play harmonics. I wouldn't go back to a keyed guitar even if I broke strings once a day.

Jason Hull · Posted 27 Feb 2010 3:50 am

The total string length does make a difference. You aren't just stretching the string between the nut and bridge, but the entire string. What difference it makes, I don't know Question

Jerry Jones · From: Franklin, Tenn.

This is the string tension guide I use:

http://www.daddario.com/upload/tension_chart_13934.pdf

The string tension will be greater on the 25” scale length, but the advantage of the keyless (shorter overall string length) is that it requires a shorter pedal stroke. So, that seems to put less stress and constant bending of the string at the changer head. Smile

Karlis Abolins · From: (near) Seattle, WA, USA

A while back I created an excel spreadsheet to help me with calculating string gauges vs. scale length. Here is a workup of a 12 string 25" guitar. The version here shows the optimum strings for that scenario. You have to make some compromises because not all diameters are available.

The blue columns are the calculated best string gauges based upon 26 pounds as the target for un-pulled tension and 32 pounds as the target for pulled tension. I then chose string gauges and put them in the string gauge column. The pink columns show the tension of the chosen gauges un-pulled (open) and pulled to the highest note.

It is important to know the breaking tension of the strings which occurs around 33 pounds for a .011 string. If you use a string set designed for a 24" scale on a 25" guitar you will break strings especially the G#. If you use a .011 on a 25" scale the tension will be 33.647 pounds. If you use a .012 the tension will be 40.042 pounds.

Karlis

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I played a 25" keyless Sierra as my main axe for about a decade. String breakage was not a problem, even with a Jagwire .0115 for the 3rd string.
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James Quackenbush · From: Pomona, New York, USA

I have had quite a few various U-12's all keyless of different makes ...I did not have a problem with my Sierra w/a 25" scale ......Add another 1/2 and inch to the scale and have a 25 1/2 inch scale on the Excel and I continually break strings this steel while putting them on ....If they don't break when putting them on, they will last a LONG time ....I think that the geometry of the location where the string connects and the fact that the windings cut into the string at this location is the culprit ... I think too that if you are playing a pedal steel with a traditional tuning key, that the string has more give than you would have with a typical keyless setup ....With the keyless setup the string is tightened into a lock down device , whereas on your typical keyed tuner , the string is wound around the tuning peg and has sort of a recoil action going on .....It has just enough give to eliminate some of the tension ....Just a guess on this ...Don't take it as gospel.....Just my thoughts on the matter.....What surprises me about this thread is the fact that there was not an .011 made that would not snap on my Excel, even if they have less tension !! ....I HAVE to run .012's or SNAPEROO !!!......Jim

PS...I NEVER change my 3rd string anymore !!....

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