The Steel Guitar Forum

Not playing is a skill I am having some diffculty with

seriously, Im having trouble laying out.
I guess I lack discipline but also, my band(s) looks at me like I'm nuts when I'm not playing. Sometimes they'll stop the song and ask me whats wrong. When I succeed in not playing, I have a hard time picking the right spot to come in. My instinct is to come in on the chorus but thats not really what I hear other players I like doing. Then theres recording. My instinct is to play the whole way thru and let The Man edit it, but that kinda leaves you at their mercy.

any thoughts, stories or advice on the subject?

edit: ooops. this should probably be in pedal steel not steel players, sorry.

Well done for trying, even though it sounds as though your band-mates don't understand the concept!

Even at the most elementary level, 'laying out' will lend your contribution more impact when you do finally play.

Good luck!

A perfect example of your discussion is on Clyde Moody's old record of "Too Young" on King label.

The song is kicked off with the fiddle, I think it is, and you don't hear single sound from a steel guitar UNTIL.......JERRY BYRD enters the musical picture with his outstanding, tone rich solo.

For anyone that has heard Ferlin Huskey's "Next to Jimmy"......and can recall the impact of JERRY BYRD's
solo, the tune above to which I refer is equally as powerful to the ear.

Before one picks a single note, don't you think it would be best to figure out what you're about to do,the musical story you're about to tell, the impression you hope to leave on the listener?

So much pickin' goin' on these days and as JERRY BYRD once asked me......"WHAT DID THEY SAY?" musically. Good point!

Not steel, but the principal's the same whoever's playing - listen to Amos Garrett's electric guitar break in Emmylou Harris' version of 'Here, There and Everywhere'; he doesn't play a note for almost five bars of his own solo!

Less is so much more....

I know some will burn my ears for this one but I myself sort of wait to see what the lead man is going to play like for example if he chicken picks well i try to think something like maybe hal rugg would do or if he has some nice single string lead well think what papa john might have thought of just using those two as examples when i hear western swing well that could cover several examples. what I am trying to say play somewhat like the rest of the band and yes there is nothing wrong at all laying out

More traditional "Nashvilley" back-up, where one instrument takes the intro, maybe lays out for a verse, a second instrument takes the chorus, then they split a verse... when done live requires players who are sensitive to the vocal and one another and who get the concept.
If it's not happening in your band, maybe a band discussion with some playing of classic recordings to get the ball rolling?
When I play with bands who have learned to do this, it's musical joy. Too often, (usually the guitarist) feels the need to take every fill, every intro, most of the solos... those gigs become real work to fit in and still contribute to the musicality of the performance.

A lot of the gigs I play in alternative rock, original songwriter stuff, or "jam bands", I find myself playing a lot more backup, somewhere between what an organ or keyboard would do and a fill instrument. In either case playing backup is at least as challenging and rewarding as soloing. It's a lot of fun trying to play subtle things that enhance the tune, and vary from section to section.

An old friend of mine who passed on a few years back, Joe Johansen, was a real fine blues guitarists and sometimes pretty cantankerous old sort. One time I was sitting in with a band he was in and after he played a solo he stopped playing and leaned over and told me "sometimes I like to lay out.....'cause it sounds so damn good when I come back in."
Had me bent over laughing, but it's true. I miss old Joe.

I totally agree with Mark. It depends on the style. If it's classic country/ honky tonk, the tradition is for one player to accompany the singer at a time.

I have an Ernest Tubb record that is a perfect example of this. In addition to ET, bass, and drums, the band also consists of steel, fiddle, electric guitar, and piano. They rotate so that each instrument accompanies the singer for a verse (or chorus) and basically lays out for the rest.

Can you imagine if all of those instruments were playing throughout the whole song?! This way each instrument contributes its unique voice to the song, but the overall sound is not cluttered by everyone banging away at once.

This requires a bit of communication amongst the band as to who will take the first verse and who will take the solo break and who will take the ending. But after a band has played together for a while this becomes effortless.

This is definitely a concept that most musicians coming from a rock or blues background have a hard time accepting, so it requires some discussion and even convincing when you are dealing with band members that don't get it. Playing some of these classic recordings as examples is the best way to demonstrate the idea.

JMHO, but if you really try to find ways to play without getting in the way, such as moving your register, or "comping" in a complimentary way, it's not "contributory" to the "calcophony" effect.

Noodling all the time just to be doing something is irritation for everyone.

Kind of like a fiddle doing endless pentatonics all through every song, as opposed to the comping, accents, etc, that a good fiddler will do and still not hsve his fiddle under his arm until his solo.

There are of course, always more reasons not to play, then there are to play, and if you're not careful, you can find yourself making a career out of it.




EJL

When I'm not soloing or filling, I find a chord grip and play it rhythmically. The effect is one of "no steel guitar" with a stronger band groove.

"Hello, darkness, my old friend..."

Ben who all you playing with these days?

b0b's right. I do the same. Play chord chops like a mando or Motown guitarist if it's appropriate. Most bands I'm in don't arrange. And every song is a din. Soooo....

good points made by all of you, thanks so much.

I should've mentioned the musical style is not trad country. I have a hard time with genre names but one band is kinda folksy and the other is kinda stonesy.

I do alot of rhythm playing in the stonesy band, in the way bOb mentioned. Its in the folksy band I'd like to shut up a bit more because there I do alot of noodling of the variety Eric mentioned. Im the only "lead" instrument in that band and only the singer has a background in anything remotely "country". They make me take a solo in every single song. I guess some guys wouldnt be complaining about that but I feel like its a bit too much and dulls the impact.

Id love to lay out for the entire song, come in during the last verse, drop a few greasy lines, then bail. That is so awesome when I hear other players do that.

I just know my noodling would be more powerful if there were far less of it and if as Ray mentioned, it had some purpose other than busy ornamentation. I dont have this problem at all on regular guitar, but I think thats because theres so much rhythm to play when I am not shredding. I certainly dont ever lay out on guitar.
I guess my playing is similar to my internet style...I cannot shut up.

I gotta work harder on both. thanks again for the advice, keep it coming!

Steve, Im with Ben Gilmer (folksy) and Low Land High (stonesy). Both bands play the Tractor next week, come see low land if you can, I like that band alot...oh actually that was who I was playing with the other nght when you couldnt stay, that was our first show, it went really well. hope to see ya soon.

Sometimes they'll stop the song and ask me whats wrong.

Just try to look cool when you're laying out.

Cal can Leann make me a Cool Mask?

Thanks Cal My Head Is Pretty Big May Have To Sew Two Together, Randy G.

What Bob said. Jody.

Jeff Newman used to preface his instruction courses

I am not going to teach you how to play - I am going to teach you WHEN to play.

I learned that it takes practice of when to come in and when to back out. Sometimes too much can hurt more than not enough. It's fine line to learn,Ben. I am still learning after 30 years. When I am at home practicing material,I'll play through the song to learn where the chord changes are. But, when I go into recording session,or do a live performance, that's when less is more. It sounds like to me, the others are wanting you to carry them through the song. I have been there many times with some of the bands that I have worked with in the past. They will have to decide if they want to professionals or not.
Tommy Shown
SMFTBL

Depends on the size of the band. A smaller group would need more chord fill. I was playing a sit down stage show and took the Buddy idea of pulling my hands of off the guitar and smiling at the audience. I was told after our first opening night that I needed to at least act like I was playing. So the next night I would back the volume down and practice speed picking,even on a slow song. Made the boss happy. I know it had to look funny.

I have played off and on in different bands with one of my high school friends for over 30 years. He plays lead, I play steel. To us it is so simple to switch off on fills and leads. We've been doing it so long it just comes natural. When I've played in bands with other lead players, I'm shocked. It seems like nobody gets it. Even if they do, some lead players play just as loud when chunking rythm as when taking their lead, causing a cacophony on stage. The other thing that I've noticed as of late is that the current country recording style has moved away from each instrument filling and soloing. It now sounds like everybody plays constantly in the studio and the engineer mixes things in and out and on top of each other. Very hard to try and recreate this in a live situation!

I like Buddy's style!

I could do like the blues brothers and sit there completely motionless until its time, then go ape.
or like the old school rappers, sit there with my arms folded across my chest, my head cocked to one side and scowl hard at the audience. "how ya like me now?".

or i could jugggle or do some mime tricks until its time to play
I could be the sheilds and yarnell of the steel world. or the next the awfulness (sorry joe)

Do you talk all the time in a conversation, even when someone else is trying to say something?

Small band music is like listening to a group conversation. When two people are talking simultaneously, it's obvious that neither are paying that much attention to each other but rather thinking about what they're trying to say over the other person's statements. What should occur is that someone has the floor temporarily, and the listeners should make discrete, appropriate comments... in our case, musically.

It's about the players hearing each other, knowing what, when, and where their counterpart wants to say something, and above all, serving the song.

Pete Mitchell and I have that kind of symbiosis, which is rare and refreshing, especially in the two years we played together with James Hand. Lately I've been sitting in with the Waylon Payne band, again with Pete. Likewise with the Tom Teboe Band, the fiddler... usually the fantastic Tony Pickens,... sits right at my side and we have great communication, no stepping on each other's toes.

It's all about communication, to each other and the audience. Sometimes we say it best when we say nothing at all (thanks, Keith.)