The Steel Guitar Forum

I attended a steel guitar workshop yesterday and I got to play on a newer pedal steel, and as I was monkeying around with it I couldn't get over how easy it was to play. The guitar was a white mica Mullen Royal Precision D-10.

As I sat there fumbling with the pedals and knee levers I kept thinking "My Sho-Bud is a trainwreck compared to this thing!" Steels have sure come a long way over the past thirty-five years.

If I was gigging more often and decided to take a steel along, I'd play a new guitar for live shows and leave the old one at home for recording.

It depends on how well the older guitar is maintained. Updated parts for most older guitars are available to make the older guitars play every bit as good and sometimes better than the new ones. I wouldn't give you 2 cents in terms of tone as comnpared to the older guitars. They beat the newer guitars hands down for tone in my opinion with a couple of exceptions.

I've had a couple of NEW pro guitars and several older ones. My two favorites were a 1974 MSA D-10 Classic,and a MSA-S 10 Classic.GREAT guitars. [just my opinion]. YOU BETCHA, DYK?BC.

Kevin Hatton wrote:I wouldn't give you 2 cents in terms of tone as comnpared to the older guitars. They beat the newer guitars hands down for tone in my opinion with a couple of exceptions.

I'm not too worried about tone in live situations. The tone will never be the same coming through different PA systems and playing in different rooms.

So if money was no object, it'd be old steel for the studio and new steel for the stage.

old tone can't die, this must be why all the top paid players are seeking the new ZUM Steels, including Buddy.

One mans tone is another mans nightmare, one mans nightmare is another mans holy grail tone.

Don't get me started....

I use this GFI expo for live and Studiowork



And this Good old Shobud is at home for practicing and home recording



I think that Pedalsteel, drumkits etc are so much work to set up, that its best to have a practice setup, I practice a lot more now that I have two steels.

As for how they play....I think they each have their different qualities, the bud have much longer knee-lever travel than the GFI, but a lot more MOJO
The GFI is a lightweight good sounding steel of a high quality, I "need" them both

Tony Zums Are Great, But We all Know The Story Why Buddy Does not Play a Emmons!Randy G.

My BMI S-12 with 8 & 5 is everybit as good as any steel guitar out there. It's thirty years old and still plays very easily and stays in tune so there's no need to change for me. I've tried other brands at the St. Louis convention and can't find any that does the job any better. Zane Beck was a genius IMHO........JH in Va.

Ignorance is bliss. This one is new enough for me. It's also old enough for me.

Everyone has their opinion and there are about as many opinions are there are different "noses".

What if this were to happen.

Car makers make cars faster, more efficient, with all the latest gadgets, but throw style out of the mix and say, "We are now giving you a square box with all the necessary parts to provide safe transportation, but from now on, all cars are going to feature the same, new square shape. We can paint it any color you want (black ones are faster), install all the latest electronic devices, we can make it do anything you want, just don't even ask about curved windows or fenders, it just cost too much to produce these things. A square box is really better. You'll look just like your friends in their new square car, and we'll even put a modern cheap vinyl logo sticker on it. so that even though your car looks just like your neighbors car, you can tell who spent the most money, because it has the more popular sticker on the square box."

Would you rush out to buy a new car? Or would the value of older cars that had more style go up? Car maker know that there is a demand for style. A few expensive cars are ugly square monstrosities, but most of them are stylish.

Most steel makers put way more attention on making clean square edges than they do on style. They make steels that have the potential to do everything, whether you need it or not. Painting a steel red and putting flames on it, does not make it sporty, any more than putting a loud muffler on a 20 year old Honda Accord, makes it a race car. If a car maker has no design sense, they hire a designer. Steel makers with no design sense just stick with the same square box.
The old steel makers used their eyes to design things that were artistic. You didn't have to be close enough to read the cheap sticker to tell who made the steel. The emmons was more square than a sho-bud or bigsby, but it still had a classy style. I bet Buddy spent a lot of time redrawing that, until it was appealing to him. A good design does have to be busy and gaudy, but it does take a little bit of thought. With cast aluminum, and CNC, the possibilities are endless. With CNC a square box is no-brainer simple, but with a little effort, these guys should be producing art.

I get bored with all the square box with pinstripes "can do anything you can dream up" guitars. Show me a work of art guitar "that can do everything I need", and I'll be more exited.

I know there are a few new makers who put thought into the visual design of their guitars. I mean no disrespect to these makers. Take a look at your guitars, You'll know if I'm talking about you.

Steel makers with no design sense just stick with the same square box.

(I could never figure out why some people get so hyped up over a simple lacquer finish or a rounded edge on a board?)

You see, rounding the edge of a board isn't exactly what I'd term a serious "art" statement, or even a major style...it's just a rounded edge. Big whoop.

To find something really "artsy", you have to have something distinctive - the "shark fin" Sho~Bud castings, or the "cat ears" on the old ZB castings. These small touches indeed added to the visual appeal of the instrument, and helped to set one instrument apart from the other. But these days, most everyone seems more primarily concerned with tone and sustain, or hadn't you noticed? So, any artistic design changes are relegated to simple custom finishes or (mass produced) strip inlay work.

Maybe some day, we'll see something really artistic on a maker's pedal steel, like intricate metal engraving, detailed wood carving, or complex machining (done for looks only).

But I'm not holding my breath.

Face it, we're in the plain-jane "mass production" era, and players are already complaining about the prices of pedal steels.

You want "art"?

You got 15 grand?

James Now Thats a Steel, Very Pretty Bet It Plays and Sounds Great, Randy G.

Why Thankyou Randy!! I love the way it sounds, and I love the way it plays and stays in tune, and it's not to hard on the eyes, either. Works for me.

James Morehead wrote:Why Thankyou Randy!! I love the way it sounds, and I love the way it plays and stays in tune, and it's not to hard on the eyes, either. Works for me.

Do you like hauling it around?

If I were gigging with steel and money was no object, I'd most likely go for a Mullen RP U-12 with a lacquer finish and fancy wood inlays. I saw one on the Mullen web site and it was gorgeous guitar.

Leslie Ehrlich wrote:
Do you like hauling it around?

Well, It's worth it to me. I could probably cut the weight a little with a modern steel, but then again, I could cut a lot of weight by playing harmonica, too. I play what I play because of the tone, look, and the way my guitar feels to me when I play it. Shedding a few pounds isn't of interest to me if I sacrifice what I love about steel guitar, MY steel guitar. I go to the car when the night is over with my 'bud in one hand and my twin reverb in the other for balance. Sure, at that moment, I wonder if I could force myself to play harmonica, or worse yet banjo. But how could I ever look b0b in the eye again?

Our chosen instrument is all about "feel". The feel of the music, the feel of the mood, the feel of the moment, the feel of the steel-guitar itself. Sure, they look great from the front, but that's not how we see it. We see it from the back, we sit behind it, we feel the pedal-pressure and travel, we hear each pull coming up to pitch, we are remorseless critics of both our own playing and our equipment; steel, amp, effects, volume-pedal, picks, bar and whatever other accoutrements we choose. We are harsh critics of our own playing but generous in our appraisal of others because we know how it feels to be behind it, giving it voice.

Unless two different brands were made identically (the closest thing in our real-world would probably be Carter vs Magnum), they will - and must - feel slightly different, even though the differences may be almost imperceptible. The mechanics of the steel have been refined over the last forty years, but they have remained essentially unchanged in the mechical principles involved; levers, fulcrums, moment-arms, radii, bellcranks, rods, shafts and bearings etc.

Mystique is invariably associated with older steels, especially the iconic brands such as Emmons, Sho-Bud and MSA. Old ZBs too are in a league of their own for unique tone, and a mechanism to match. Curiously, the structural materials from which steels are built have remained much the same in that time; maple in various types, aluminium alloys, stainless-steel, steel of varying grades, plastics such as Delrin, polyethylene and others. In spite of this, the mystique associated with old steels remains. It is as if we trust the old in preference to the new.

What I note in the modern steels is great tone without great weight. Old MSAs were rumoured to have been built from parts of Jupiter and had the weight to prove it. The old push-pull Emmons are not lightweights either, and an old Sho-Bud D10 will give your back a workout if you are not careful. Compare the weight of these icons to a new Carter, or a GFI. Yes, the tone is subtly different (acknowledging there are those who will maintain there is a huge difference between push-pull tone and all-pull tone ipso facto) but the new steels are far kinder to your back, and a lot of us steelers are now getting into our more advanced years.

In my view, the magnificent restorations done by the likes of Mike Cass and John Coop (to name just two of many) prove there is nothing fundamentally wrong with old steels structurally that can't be fixed given enough will and money, and it warms my crusty old heart to see old instruments given a new lease of life. An old steel may be a very fine addition to the arsenal, irrespective of whether it needs little work or a total rebuild. Each owner makes the decision as to how much to spend, and what to spend it on. Restoration preserves our heritage as well as extending the lives of great steels.

In new steels we have the benefit of forty years or more of development, innovation, and improvements in manufacturing techniques. CNC was unheard of when the first Emmons, Sho-Buds, Marlens and MSAs were being hand-crafted. Now it is commonplace, and the beauty and uniformity of precise components, especially in changers, is a joy to behold as well as giving us superbly reliable and adjustable instruments that stay in tune and are easy to set up and maintain. We're all winners in that respect.

It all comes back to us, the players and owners. How much value do we place on antiquity compared to convenience. How much are we prepared to pay for and put up with, for "old tone", and how different is that from the tone of today's steels? How many of us extract all the inherent tone in our steels when we play them? Not many, I would think. Isn't this desire to achieve that certain tone a major part of what drives us to play this improbable marriage of precision-engineering and cabinet-work in the first place?

Old versus new steels? Which is better? Neither - and both. The answer is entirely in the hands, heart and ears of the greatest single variable in the whole equation - the human being behind each instrument when it is played.

oddly enough, i'm with leslie on this one. once you're on stage most of your vintage subtle tone is lost. for the most part these days you're lucky to be able to hear yourself over everything else, let alone have headroom, dynamics and room for beautiful tonal appreciation. sometimes you can still hear how 'well' someone plays, as in buddy, paul, tommy etc...but subtleties of individual guitar nuance would be in all practicality, not really that obvious in a standard live situation.

I played through an old 73 Fender Super reverb the other night with 4x10, Wow! Was that some superb tone with my Sho-bud, Had pod xt in front of it which really beefred up the EQ.
It gave a monsterous 'Strat' tone too, guitar player was creaming!
Weighed in at about 90 Lbs, but i diden't have to carry it!

Oh, I like old heavy 'wooden' steel tone myself, i have tried others, but i'm afraid i'm with our Sho-bud freinds!

as long as my wife carrys my stuff in and out I have no problem with the weight

I'm actually with you guys on most of this. I love my double neck ZB. It looks really great in my dining room, but fear of stairs keeps it at home. When I go out, I often take an Emmons student model. because it is light and sounds great, and stays in tune. It is the ugliest guitar I have, but it travels well.
I'd just like to see a new guitar that is light, and is made with some of the style considerations of the old ones. The old one were too heavy. The new ones look like a box.
Fancy inlays alone are not the kind of class I'm talking about. The ZBs, Sho-buds, Bigsbys, early Marlens, and such all had very distict looks. Either you get this and appreciate it, or you don't. If you don't get it, or the difference is not worth it to you, play a plastic covered box. I'll tell you when I think you sound great, but don't expect me to tell you it's pretty.
And yes, that "simple laquer finish", and that rounded edge are two of the things that let you know your on to something.

My S-10 Emmons PP weighs about three pounds more than my S-10 Williams... in the case weights...... so the weight thing doesn't have to be that much of a factor. I have several vintage guitars and several modern ones.... I like 'em all. If I'm playing a NYC club gig, I favor the light weight guitar. If there is a parking lot, the D-10 PP or one of the '73 LDGs gets the call.

James Morehead wrote:

Leslie Ehrlich wrote:
Do you like hauling it around?

I go to the car when the night is over with my 'bud in one hand and my twin reverb in the other for balance.

James, that's pretty serious. Glad I'm on your good side!

Light weight split cases solves ANY weight issues with older guitars. Case wheels and spring handle also. A D-10 Sho-Bud in a body case is lighter than most modern guitars. Not even an issue.