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Topic: Fender cable steel guitar guys... HELP!!!! |
Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 27 Aug 2009 9:35 am |
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Jim, Donnie, ANYBODY thats gotten good on the mechanics of these dinosaurs.. Please email me your phone #.. I have many questions.. I bought an 800 that is a basket case horror, and although I am getting familiarized , I am in over my head and could use a phone session... or two.. ... or seven...
Instead of posting back and forth here at a snails pace. I would greatly appreciate some real time conversation, with the phone in my left hand and a Phillips in my right! bob
bullet_bob@lycos.com
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Stan Schober
From:
Cahokia, Illinois, USA
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 27 Aug 2009 11:35 am
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Yes.. Jim would know who I am talking about, as he and Donnie Hinson know a lot about these guitars, but there are probably 2 dozen others as well.
I need to talk with some guys that have been there with these Fenders. I don't have the time and patience I guess these days to figure it out slowly.. I want to play the damn thing instead trying to figure out what each of the 5 screw adjustments per string does.
Any and all help would be appreciated bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 27 Aug 2009 2:25 pm
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Hi Bob,
edit: oops, 800, i was thinking 400 for some reason, hopefully some of this will still apply to the 800?
Sliffs the man.
Until you can get in direct contact with him tho, maybe i can remember what he told me. sorry if I butcher this Jim.
You wanna clean everything with naptha lighter fluid.
Take apart the turnbuckles and clean em good with lighter fluid. Flush the changer slots with loads of this lighter fuild, hose it down! flip her over and flush the other side of the changer. clean the pulleys make sure they all move freely. If parts are stuck, heating them might work to unstick, liquid wrench maybe too. careful with those rags when your done. may wanna clean tuning pan and tuners too, up to you.
Once cleaned get your cables set up with your copedant making sure none cross each other at the big pulley and trying to minimize hangups from small pulleys rubbing on each other. adjust your turbuckles so that the cables are tight but just before they are so tight as to pull the changer 'fingers" forward. Those changer finger things should line up in a straight line. Im sure fingers is the wrong word for em, changer hooks? where the cable connects to the changer lets put it that way.
Lube with tri-flow. dont use anything else to lube.
adjust with turnbuckles, as above, pedal height screws, and pedal rods seem to have an effect too. biggest affect seems to be in the turnbuckles for me. im sure you knw how to adjust the stops...
Your lowers may feel a bit stiff. Thats because the springs are a bit stiff. You can replace the springs with less taut ones to help with this.
I assume you know how to tune it, hook up the cables and everything else etc right? If not or theres anythign specific juts say so and I'll try and help.
I dunno hope that helps and I didnt butcher it too much in my explanation.I dont pretend to have one millionth the knowledge that Jim or Donny or others have, but maybe that will get you started till they can confirm, correct or add thier wisdom to my attempt to try and help.
my fender plays beautifully now, where it wouldnt play at all before, thanks to Jims advice, of course. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 27 Aug 2009 5:27 pm
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| Doug Beaumier wrote: |
| Carter has a Fender 400 (single 8 ) Manual on line that may be of some help. It shows the undercarriage, the cable hookups, tuning, etc. ----> CLICK |
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Doug.. Thats for an old 400 changer.. All 800 steels had a cam style changer thats much different.. Roller nut as well... There is also a larger screw on top of the 4 flat/sharp adjustments on all 10 strings.. each string has 5 screws... Sliff will know hopefully.. I am making some progress. I did have a 400, and got it playing well, but I have forgotten a lot, and this thing was a disaster with most of the changer locked down tight so NOTHING would move,, 6 pedals and 3 knees with about 2 pedals that would actually DO something.. in some oddball copedent that meant nothing to no one except the dead guy that played it decades ago... Thats what you get when you buy from a "vintage guitar" dealer that doesn't know anything about steel guitar tuning or set up... I don't blame them,, They had no way of knowing. I'll get it together, just need some questions answered as to mechanism operation... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Fred Glave
From:
McHenry, Illinois, USA
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Posted 28 Aug 2009 5:58 am
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First of all, it sounds like the changers need to be completely cleaned. The copedant isn't an issue, because quick, frequent changes is the beauty of the Fender. Those spring screws are probably best left alone until you've got the changer in good order. Although, I think you may have to remove them when doing a complete clean and lube. I became frustrated with my 2000, and just brought it down to Scotty's and was lucky enough to have Don Curtis get it into shape. It can be daunting if it's in the shape you describe, but once it's up and running , maintanance is pretty easy. I'm not sure about the 400, but the 2000 has 2 screws per string that are for tuning raises and lowers. 2 tension spring screws per string, one for the raise and one for the lower. That 5th screw is something I'm not familiar with.
_________________
Zum Encore, Zum Stage One, Fender 2000, Harlan Bros., Multi-Kord, |
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Stephen Calhoun
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 28 Aug 2009 12:09 pm
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JS is the man. There is lots of data here on the forum too.
I can't vouch for an 800 at all. But I've become very proficient at taking a 400 apart. Oh, and putting it back together again.
If the tuning screws don't turn easily, and/or, with the guitar upside down, the blades are askew and the pedals via the loops don't move some or all of the blades they're attached to--were it me--I'd take it all apart. If the tuning screws are screwed all the way in, the pedals won't move anything. At least, that's the case with the 400 mechanism I'm familiar with.
Taking the changer apart allows you to see how the thing works. After reassembly, the guitar will be improved from the cleaning and lube job.
Although keeping track of all the parts is the key really, the only challenge I experienced in reassembly was setting both kinds of springs. I use a very small 'electronics' screwdriver to stretch the big springs over the tongue.
Also, the pedal #1 cable, closest to the pulley, needs to sit at the bottom track of the pulley. I usually have to hold it there while I put the other cables 2-3-4 in their tracks (on the 400.)
Everything else I know is germane to my particular late version sunburst 400. I have no idea how different a particular 800 is from the identical 1970-ish 400s I have.
This, the bottom part of a 400 changer, is the only part of the changer I tri-flow.
(I also tri-flow the moving parts in the pedals/cranks. I use WD40 to clean threads, but then I wipe the threads off thoroughly.)
It's worth being patient to get the antique sneaky gizmo to its buttery state, which is--amazingly--achievable.
_________________
slide avant-gardist, experimentalist, echo surfer
two 1970-ish Fender 400, Fouke Industrial Rail, Allen Melbert 6, Rondo SX -- everything one way or the other through Guitar Rig/Logic/Apple/synthesizers/iPAD. ...sometimes out to a Tech 21 Trademark 60 1x12
recording as Kamelmauz.bandcamp.com |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 28 Aug 2009 12:45 pm
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wow.. that looks nothing like the over and under design of the 800 changer... Not even close....
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 28 Aug 2009 12:48 pm
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No one has an 800 or 2000?... It doesn't look like the 400 changer setup I am seeing on these pages...
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 28 Aug 2009 2:31 pm
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yeah Im out of my leaugue when it comes to the 800 (and most evertythign else).
You could try at the fender forum, might get some attention quicker. should be at least able to start cleaning her up tho eh?
In the meantime for reference heres a photo from the fender forum of the changer on an 800
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Bob Knetzger
From:
Kirkland, WA USA
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Posted 28 Aug 2009 2:49 pm
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800 is a double pull: you get two raises and two lowers for each string... so there are 40 "hooks" in two rows of twenty underneath.
The WHITE screws set the stops for the raises, the BLACK screws set the steps for the lowers. The more you turn the screws clockwise, the shorter the finger travel (meaning the less sharpening or flattening) of the string. Turn the screws counter clockwise for more travel (more raising or lowering). Be sure the cables are slack enough to NOT pull on a finger at all before pressing any pedal or lever.
The recessed row of ten bigger screws set the spring tension on each of the "lowers'" return springs--clockwise for more spring tension, counter clockwise for less tension. Pedal action on lowers still too stiff? Change to a "softer" spring.
Is the the info you need, Bob? |
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Fred Glave
From:
McHenry, Illinois, USA
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Posted 28 Aug 2009 3:46 pm
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Aha! Bob Knetzger's on the money. On my 2000, just like the 800, there are 2 screws on top for the double raise, and 2 screws on the bottom for the double lowers. The 5th screw is the tension spring. These changers are also notorious for things getting stuck between the fingers, like the ball ends of broken strings.
_________________
Zum Encore, Zum Stage One, Fender 2000, Harlan Bros., Multi-Kord, |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 28 Aug 2009 3:46 pm
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Yes thanks Bob.. I have figured that all out as I got into this setup.. Its starting to come together.. Right now I am having trouble flattening a full tone on certain strings such as both B's.. Low G# to F# was no problem.. I could probably have dropped it 2 full tones.. With the B strings I may just be at the limits of the mechanism, or may have to adjust string gauges. I know you have [or had] an 800... I had trouble earlier on because EVERY screw except one or two was slammed down hard and nothing moved.. After realizing that this guitar had been in the hands of a gorilla or two at some point in its life, I started backing the stops off and the lower springs, and got thinsgs going more as they should be.I am getting better at it by the hour, and its starting to take shape now... Just wondering about how low this will pull?.. Maybe like some old Buds on certain strings, 1/2 tone down is as good as it gets.. which would REALLY suck, as it leaves me with half my powder gone, and the other half wet. anyway, if you would email me your #, I would appreciate it... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Russ Tkac
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Posted 28 Aug 2009 5:26 pm
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Bob, I don't have an 800 but leave a little slack in the cable. I find it just takes a little work and it will play fine. Jim must be at work or he would be all over this. 
Russ |
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Bob Knetzger
From:
Kirkland, WA USA
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Posted 28 Aug 2009 5:53 pm
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Is the B string lower you're having trouble with on an added non-Fender knee lever? Maybe that could be your problem.
There can be some l-o-n-g travels on some lower fingers and a home brew knee lever might need extra long bell cranks to get enough linear movement. Maybe your knee lever's travel is the limiter...? |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 28 Aug 2009 6:40 pm
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Bob,, No the knees were put on probably back in the 60's.. They are very well done[for that time] using ALL Fender pull cables and Fender turnbuckles and the same exact actuators that the guitar has on the pedals.. They got a bunch of Fender stuff from somewhere.. Possibly right from Fender back when this stuff could be bought from a dealer.
Nice cable rollers also. Tons of throw too... Everything adjusts at the changer or the turnbuckle, exactly like the pedals do.
Actually the knees are not even in the mix. I have them all disconnected, and the cables out of the changer. My plan was to get every floor pedal where I want it and do the levers last.
The B lowers are on a pedal.
I may have found the problem. There was a thin WOUND string on the high B and the low B is a shipyard cable compared to a standard set.. I think it was an 018 wound on the B, and it was so warn out and shiny that I didn't even notice, until it broke... I am going to restring this guitar before I go any further, with new Emmons strings of known gauges, and retune everything.
My eyes are not very good these days, and I am not able to do this type of close in work anymore. I get frustrated quickly as I need one set of glasses when I need to see something from 3 feet away, and then have to change to a different set when I am a foot away. I am missing a lot of small things that never would have gotten past me 5 years ago.
Missing the fact that there was a wound string on the B was scary. My eyes are getting really bad, and patience is non existent, which is a bad thing when trying to get an old cable job up and running again.
Another problem I have is this guitar is WAY too high. Looks like I am going to have to cut the pedal rods down a bit at the threaded end, and cut some new threads so I can shorten all the legs, and pedal rods.. This is getting to be a major pain in the ass to be blunt. When I heard the guitar through my Bandmaster Reverb however, I remembered why I bought it.. It sounds wonderful,, So classic.
Once I get some normal strings and set the pedal stops again, I will imagine I will see a big improvement. Pedal action was too stiff, but again, there are some seriously heavy strings
on that guitar now..
Who knows what they had this thing tuned to???.. Could have been anything as they had all the strings loose, and none of the pedals did anything, everything was locked down.
I'll keep everyone posted. Please keep the good ideas coming..
Here's some of my trial and error discoveries..
I know to keep some slack in those cables where they hook onto the changer fingers,
I know not to have the fingers being pulled out,
I read here someone said to have the #1 pedal on the bottom roller.. I don't, mine is opposite... Seems to be a straight pull.. Major problem??.. Everything is rolling ok it seems. I know how to adjust the turnbuckles to keep just enough tension so the cables stay in their roller groves, but not so much so that they pull the fingers when at rest.. Am I missing anything? .. Thanks to all you guys.. any other ideas, please let me know! bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Russ Tkac
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Posted 29 Aug 2009 5:43 am
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Bob,
A nice Carter might fix the problem. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 29 Aug 2009 7:30 am
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| Russ Tkac wrote: |
Bob,
A nice Carter might fix the problem. |
Yeah just played my Carter... The Fender may go the way of the wood stove... lol
we're getting there.. The guys at the guitar store put the wrong gauge strings on and, I didn't really notice until I started having pull problems. Looked at them with better glasses, and found them to be much thicker than a standard E9 set.
After a proper string set is installed, I will try again to do a complete set up..If I am still not happy with it, I'll put it up for trade here for something of equal value. I am sure someone can use it, and get it working well. The parts alone on this thing are probably worth a small fortune.. Everything is original Fender, even on the knees, except for the levers themselves. bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 30 Aug 2009 5:07 pm
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Sorry Bob -been buried at work and have spot checked the forum recently but missed the thread!
FYI it's a good idea to shoot me an email as well as post - emails I get right away.
All the info given so far is good. There was, though, confusion about the changer - the 800, like the short-scale 400, has a combination bridge/changer as opposed to the long-scale models with a changer finger, "hog ring", and separate bridge (with the roller-type an aftermarket item).
One thing it sounds like you *do* have kind of messed up is the sequence of cables at the large pulley - the cable closest to the pulley - pedal #1 - needs to be closest to the body. Then comes #2, #3, etc. Assuming an 8-pedal guitar, the "top" cable (when the guitar is belly-up) should be #8. This gives you the straightest pull and has a huge affect on the friction of the large pulley discs and pretty much everything down the line.
If it's never ben done, I *highly* recommend removing the discs from the pulley, polishing them almost to a mirror-like finish, then lubing with dry TriFlow or Blaster Dry Lube (another brand I recently found, and so far I think it's a bit better than the TriFlow - the disadvantage is it's an aerosol and a lot of lube gets wasted.).
Cleaning and lubing that big pulley makes a significant difference. in the feel - everything is "lighter", Every Fender I've had here (either stuff I was building, parts acquired or guitars being "tweaked" for others) has had at least one or two..but usually most...of the discs completely stuck together from old oils. Same with the small pulleys, and good reasons to NEVER use oil on these parts - it'll gather dirt, break down and freeze things up.
As far as changer loop tension, it's a personal preference thing - Some like the turnbuckles tightened so the lightest touch activates a change; others want a bit of play. The most important part is to NOT overtighten them - if the changer fingers with loops on them are not neatly lined up, a turnbuckle is too tight or something is bound, sticking, getting hung up etc.
That's common with guitar that have a lot of changes (like my 9+2 400) - so I recently added nylon posts as string guides to minimize friction, eliminate parts hitting each other and get the straightest pull at the changer I could. It made a gigantic difference for a $7.00 investment:
Last - check your pedal rod lengths. If the rod levers are hanging down a bit you are losing some efficiency - getting them level is a balancing act of rod length and turnbuckle tightness, but it take about 5 minutes to figure out AND accomplish!
As far as the guitar being too high - are you *&@#'ing kidding?  I just added an inch of height to mine and am going to post the method; the non-adjustable 400 legs (I don't recall if the 800's are adjustable make the guitar too short for me to use a volume pedal, and with some effects hanging under the apron it's an even tighter squeeze. I'm 6'3" but have heard the same thing from some guys 5'11" or so - of course, I've installed extension kits on every "normal" steel I've ever had as well!
Hope that helps. Sorry for being MIA - work's settling down and I should b around more.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 31 Aug 2009 9:11 am
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A heavier gauge string will lower and raise further for a given cam movement, so, If the B's don't go down far enough, use a heavier gauge. QED.
When you're fed up with the vagaries of the 800's mechanism, I'll take it off your hands, just to give you some respite from the worry of it all ! 
Basil |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 31 Aug 2009 9:52 am
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| basilh wrote: |
| A heavier gauge string will lower and raise further for a given cam movement, |
hmmm, my experience is the opposite. |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 31 Aug 2009 10:29 am
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Shh Ernest, I was trying to throw a "Spanner in the Works" so the guitar may come my way sooner rather than later ... eventually.. 
Demonstrated where ? I was just Fishing and a bite was detected 
Last edited by basilh on 31 Aug 2009 10:35 am; edited 2 times in total |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 31 Aug 2009 10:30 am
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http://www.doneganoptical.com/optivisor.php
Seriously. All the old fret & repair guys use 'em. I bought the #7 lens that has a 6" focal length, I wish I had the #4 that's 10" too. Your eyes are not going to get any better, that's not the way it works.  For 35 bucks or so, the frustration level of creeping decrepitude is reduced immeasurably. |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 31 Aug 2009 10:37 am
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| Quote: |
| For 35 bucks or so, the frustration level of creeping decrepitude is reduced immeasurably. |
Really David, how COULD you mix a colloquialism along with such descriptive superlatives ?
Somewhat verging on "Hankeyism" methinks.
_________________
Steelies do it without fretting
CLICK THIS to view my tone bars and buy——> |
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