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Topic: Reece and Minors |
Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 5 Aug 2009 10:34 am |
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Reece, there is a thread going on now about playing in minor keys. Playing Gospel music in minor keys. JD Sauser made mention of something you explained to him about minor keys and working in them.
Could you, or I guess I should say, would you elaborate on that?
_________________
You can observe a lot just by looking |
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Reece Anderson
From:
Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 5 Aug 2009 1:00 pm
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Bill....I'm glad to help. Since I didn't see the thread about minors. I will assume you are referencing pedal steel.
The following is the location of three different places one can play the same minor when using the basic E9th three pedals and the raised and lowered E strings, normally located on knee levers.
To locate three positions of ANY minor.
1) Decide on which minor you wish to play and go to that major fret with the bar. Example.....If you want to play a G minor go to the 3rd fret, C minor go to the 8th fret and so on. You will NOT find a minor located there on the basic three pedal 2 knee lever guitar, however the major position selected has defined the starting position (SP) which will be used to determine the fret position of three inversions of ANY minor.
2) From any major position (starting point) add three frets to the right and push pedal A. You will have located the first inversion relative minor to the chord selected.
2) Now move your bar 5 more frets to the right (actually 8 frets up from the SP) and push the knee lever which lowers the E strings and you have located the second inversion of the minor selected.
3) Now move two more frets to your right (actually 10 frets up from the SP)and push pedals B & C and you will have located the 3rd inversion of the same minor.
The formula for ALL MINORS is written like this:
SP + 3 w/A + 5 w/lowered E's + 2 w/ B & C. When one mentally associates the pedal and knee lever applications for each position, the "shorthand formula could look as simple as this...SP + 3 + 5 + 2.
I apologize for the seemingly extended explanation, but I know of no way to condense it. You will quickly find you have immediate access to three inversions of EVERY minor chord. |
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Gary Arnold
From:
Panhandle of Florida, USA
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Posted 5 Aug 2009 6:39 pm Minors in Gospel Music
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Mr. Reece, I'm the one that started the thread you commented on but the post above you stated it wrong, the question was tips on playing Gospel music when the song is composed in a minor KEY. I have admired your playing for years, thanks for taking the time to answer these questions   Gary |
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Brendan Mitchell
From:
Melbourne Australia
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Posted 5 Aug 2009 11:04 pm
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Don't you mean 3 frets to the right with pedal A gives you the minor of SP --starting point-- whereas pedal A on any fret gives you the relative minor of that chord .
I hope I'm right as that is about the limit of my music theory . |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 6 Aug 2009 12:44 am
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Brendan I agree. Also Im a lil confused as well.
I transpose major to minor from open major bar position to the 2 frets down plus BC, or 3 frets up plus A. Finding the other 2 inversions from there. Im not very good at math anymore, but this would be: M>m1>m2>m3=(M>-2 AB or +3 A, -4 D >?, +/-?) Help.
Im sure with other levers there are some tricky alternatives, but simple is good, and three is a good number of inversions  I guess the 1st inversion isnt really inverted at all is it? Root, minor 3rd, Fifth? |
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Jeff Agnew
From:
Dallas, TX
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Posted 6 Aug 2009 4:27 am
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| Quote: |
| Don't you mean 3 frets to the right with pedal A gives you the minor of SP --starting point-- whereas pedal A on any fret gives you the relative minor of that chord . |
Brendan, that's what Reece said except that he's not trying to differentiate between types of minors. Not to speak for him, but his concept is to give you a quick way to find all the locations for any minor on the neck (with a 3p/2k setup). The point is not to think about relative minors in relation to the starting point (although you need to know that as well) but to realize that if the music calls for a minor chord, you instantly visualize where every instance of it can be found on the neck. So, for example, if you're playing a 1 from the AB pedals down position and the song goes to a 4-, where is the closest position? Now let's say you that for musical reasons you don't want that position. If you instantly recognize where all the other 4 minors are, relative to the position of any one of them, you just opened up the flood gates for musical ideas.
| Quote: |
| I transpose major to minor from open major bar position to the 2 frets down plus BC, or 3 frets up plus A. |
Clete, you're doing the same thing Reece described, but you're going from the starting point to the left, then back up to the starting point, then to the right. His formula is just to go right, then repeat. So at the octave, he ends up with the BC combination. Realizing, of course, that the lower octave of that position is two frets below your SP. I think it's a easier mentally to view the formula Reece's way, keeping in mind that based on your SP position on the neck, there may be positions to the left, as well.
I've probably needlessly confused the matter. There's nothing new here -- it's just a way of thinking about minors (and majors, using a different formula) that is very powerful once you get your head around it. |
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Joey Ace
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 6 Aug 2009 4:33 am
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Brendon,
You have a good eye for detail!
In item #2 of Reece's post, the word relative should be removed. I missed this when I read Reese's excellent post.
Minors are made by flatting the third tone of a chord.
I think of this as "three frets above SP" gives a Major Chord using the A Pedal and the lever that raises the Es (commonly called the AF position).
When you release the lever, you are flatting the third tone, resulting in a making the chord minor. |
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Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 6 Aug 2009 4:58 am
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Reece, thanks for the lesson.
The only time I have a problem with minors, diminished, augmented, or whatever, is when I start thinking about them. If I just listen to the the music, "feel" where to go, and quit thinking, I'm usually ok. Most of the time I have no idea what the chord is I'm using, if it sounds good I go for it. Then sometimes I start thinking and screw everthing up.
_________________
You can observe a lot just by looking |
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Reece Anderson
From:
Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 6 Aug 2009 5:04 am
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Gary A…..First of all thank you for your kind words. It’s a pleasure to take part in your discussion.
Bill asked about “working in minor keys”, and that which I discussed with JD was concerning my minor formula.
The thread title “Playing Gospel Music In Minor Keys” suggests the idea that playing in minor keys requires a different way of thinking. This erroneous perception may be circumvented when considering the songs written in minors as being attached to a major root chord. Doing so will provide consistency and a much easier and faster way of thinking.
Brendan M…..You are exactly right. Three frets to the right of any major chord when pedal A is depressed provides the relative minor. When looking at my formula all you need then do is add 5 frets, then add 2 frets and you have located the bar positioning for all three inversions of ANY minor chord.
You’re doing great on your theory, keep it up.
Clete R….Sorry my formula appeared confusing. That which you illustrate is the same as my formula…. only in a different sequence. You are first thinking B & C minus 2 frets equal relative minor by moving to the left then back to the original starting position then thinking to the right. Doing this would make your formula “hazy” to most.
Everyone’s natural tendency is to read left to right, and your formula is contradictory to our tendencies and exposes inconsistency. Notice in my formula that after every number there is a plus which indicates left to right movement.
For illustration purposes I considered each fret position a different inversion, the inversions may be altered at each position with the right hand.
I appreciate the comments of each of you. |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 6 Aug 2009 6:00 am
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| Reece Anderson wrote: |
| Brendan M…..You are exactly right. Three frets to the right of any major chord when pedal A is depressed provides the relative minor. |
My friend Reece provides a lot of excellent information in his posts but I must say that one needs to be careful with the use of the word "relative". I think Reece means it in its colloquial usage rather than in its formal musical usage. Formally, the "relative minor" is the VIm (6minor) chord when referenced from a major chord/key. So in the key of G, the "relative minor" would be Em. THAT chord you could easily get by staying at the 3rd fret (open-G fret) and simply depressing your A pedal without moving the bar. What Reece is saying is to go from a G major chord to a G minor chord, you go up 3 frets and press the A pedal. You could say that that is the G minor chord is related to the G major chord (just flats the 3rd tone), but one really shouldn't call it the "relative minor" chord, since that would be Em, not Gm.
Hope I haven't confused anyone further with this explanation and we now return you to your regularly scheduled program.
JC
_________________
www.JimCohen.com
www.RonstadtRevue.com
www.BeatsWalkin.com |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 6 Aug 2009 6:43 am
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| Reece Anderson wrote: |
| Everyone’s natural tendency is to read left to right, and your formula is contradictory to our tendencies and exposes inconsistency. |
AHA! My problem is that I really dont "read" music well. I even have problems following TAB. Though I can listen to something and visualize it usually. I see what you mean about inversions now. Each position contains inversions depending on what "grips" are used. The other point is that of a "relative" minor. I was not referring to relative minor, but a transposed minor. For instance C major to C minor, not C major and A minor (relative). This is where I was using the 2 frets down +AB as my quick C major to C minor reference. Hope this clarifies my confusion. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 6 Aug 2009 8:53 am
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A direct way to modulate from a major chord to the same minor chord is to use the 5th string B to Bb lever with the A and B pedals down. At the nut, the A and B pedals give an A chord. The 5th string has been raised to C#, the 3rd of the chord. The knee lever lowers that a half-step to C, converting the chord to Am.
I think Clete's way of looking at how to move from a major chord to the same minor chord is just as useful and easy to understand as Reece's. But instead of thinking linearly moving in one direction up the neck, Clete is thinking more of a pocket, where two different ways to get a minor are within two or three frets one side or the other from the open major.
There is another such pocket at the pedals down fret of any major chord. With the A and B pedals down, the same chord in minor form can be found one fret to the right with the E-lower lever. So that can also be though of as a major-to-minor pocket.
And, as someone above mentioned, any major chord made with the A pedal and F lever combination can be toggled to the minor by releasing the F lever and remaining at the same fret.
The much more common use of a minor pocket is to consider the tonic minor as the starting point, and finding the other common chords of minor progressions at nearby frets, for example the IVm and V7, in order to play songs in minor keys. But that is a different question, and is more related to the current thread about playing minor key Gospel songs. |
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Dick Sexton
From:
Greenville, Ohio
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Posted 6 Aug 2009 9:30 am
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Thank you David, for your great input on this subject...
As you said, Gary Arnold wrote in another thread:
I will start playing in the Church Band in two weeks, some of the music they play for the Praise & Worship team is played in minor keys, I need some direction, playing a minor chord is no problem as I have been playing for 20+ but minor keys make me nur-vise, could I get some pointers from any one that plays for Praise & Worship teams Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Arrow Thanks, Gary
Playing in minor keys is the problem.
Could you please give us a little more info on this. I too, have trouble understanding and playing in minor keys, even though finding minor chords is not to much of a problem.
Many might gain from this discussion. Thank you... |
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Reece Anderson
From:
Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 6 Aug 2009 10:33 am
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I was sidetracked while typing my response, and after entering my post I then saw where Jeff and Joey had been so kind as to help me explain that which I was trying to relate….. and also Bill had posted. Sorry guys if it may have appeared I was neglecting your posts, as that was not the case at all.
Discussing musical applications with many of varied experience is at times difficult. For instance, when I said “relative” minor, I felt most would understand I was referring to the same “major chord” which I had specifically designated as the “starting position” in this instance.
I also felt (perhaps mistakenly) the majority would relate better to my explanation that the major chord was the relative chord when considering the position in which a like minor could be located. In this circumstance I was referring to the major chord as always being the starting position.
When I suggested moving up to the next interval, I again felt that “interval” would best relate. In hindsight possibly I should have said next “position” and that would have been more clear.
Thank you Jeff for “filling in for me” and for sharing your exceptional insight of the “minor formula”.
Joey, I was mistaken in not believing my use of the word relative would be taken literally since I felt it was clear that in my example I was referencing everything to the “major chord”.
You are of course right, the true relative minor would be the 6 minor. I of course agree with you other explanation.
Jim C…..You explained my thoughts and intentions better than I, and I appreciate your help.
Clete R…..Looks to me like you have a pretty good handle on the “formula”.
David D….As usual, your posts are spot on and always appreciated.
Dick S…..I believe that when playing in minor keys and attaching the designated minor key with a MAJOR chord could solve your problem. When someone is thinking they are playing in a “root minor chord” it can become a huge stumbling block. |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 6 Aug 2009 2:14 pm
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| Back to the original question,,,,we must first ask ourselves "what does the key signature for a minor key look like"?,,,,,oh,,,,there is no such thing????,,,,then I guess we could just play in the key that is indicated by the signature,,and use relative minors where appropriate. |
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Max W. Thompson
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 6 Aug 2009 2:44 pm
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Sonny,
The key of A minor is the relative minor of the key of C, and would have the same key signature as C, which is no sharps and no flats. The key of D minor is the relative minor of the key of F, and would have the same key signature as F, one flat (Bb).
All the relative minor keys are the same interval from their relative major key. G Major & E minor, D Major & B minor, etc.
So, if the song is in A minor, you can generally play in the key of C and sound ok. |
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Ian Kerr
From:
Queensland, Australia
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Posted 6 Aug 2009 5:02 pm
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| Playing in a minor key is not quite as simple as just playing in the appropriate major key because the tonality [harmony] of the chords is not the same.As an example the common 1,4, 5, 1 progression[eg.C, F , G7,C] would become Cm7,Fm7,G7(usually),Cm7.ie. the harmonized minor scale is different from the harmonized major scale and consequently the chord patterns are different. |
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Calvin Walley
From:
colorado city colorado, USA
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Posted 7 Aug 2009 12:33 pm
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other than the 12th fret with A pedal
where can i find C# minor ?
_________________
proud parent of a sailor
Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!
Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Dick Sexton
From:
Greenville, Ohio
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Posted 7 Aug 2009 1:20 pm Where can I find a C#m other then at the 12th A pedal.
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Calvin, it can hardly be explained any clearer then this.
To locate three positions of ANY minor.
1) Decide on which minor you wish to play and go to that major fret with the bar. Example.....If you want to play a G minor go to the 3rd fret, C minor go to the 8th fret and so on. You will NOT find a minor located there on the basic three pedal 2 knee lever guitar, however the major position selected has defined the starting position (SP) which will be used to determine the fret position of three inversions of ANY minor.
2) From any major position (starting point) add three frets to the right and push pedal A. You will have located the first inversion minor to the chord selected. Example: C to C#m
2) Now move your bar 5 more frets to the right (actually 8 frets up from the SP) and push the knee lever which lowers the E strings and you have located the second inversion of the minor selected.
3) Now move two more frets to your right (actually 10 frets up from the SP)and push pedals B & C and you will have located the 3rd inversion of the same minor.
The formula for ALL MINORS is written like this:
SP + 3 w/A + 5 w/lowered E's + 2 w/ B & C. When one mentally associates the pedal and knee lever applications for each position, the "shorthand formula could look as simple as this...SP + 3 + 5 + 2. |
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Calvin Walley
From:
colorado city colorado, USA
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Posted 7 Aug 2009 1:23 pm
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thanks guys
i was just looking for a new way to play it
_________________
proud parent of a sailor
Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!
Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick |
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Jeff Agnew
From:
Dallas, TX
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Posted 7 Aug 2009 1:58 pm
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Dick's explanation is spot on. But let's take it further. Instead of three positions, let's find them all. Based on your C# example, here's everything aligned:
| Tab: |
Formula: SP +3 +5 +2 +3 (from octave of SP)
Fret: 9 12 17 19 24
P/KL: - A E B/C A
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Notice that as we passed fret 19, we also passed the octave (fret 21) of the starting point (fret 9). So everything starts over.
Now, unless you're a John Hughey clone, you probably don't spend much time above the 19th fret. So... where are the remaining useful positions? Easy. Once you get past the 12th fret, everything repeats, right? So an octave below the positions at 17, 19, and 24, you get:
frets 3, 5, 7, and 12 (which you already have). Put this formula together and you get:
| Tab: |
Formula: +3 +5 +2 SP +3 +5 +2 +3 (from octave of SP)
Fret: 0 12 17 12 17 19 24
P/KL: A E B/C - A E B/C A
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That's all of 'em (C# minor) unless we talk about other knee levers. If you study this, you'll see the repeating pattern and with time it will be automatic and you'll see it on your guitar. Once it becomes automatic, you can go to any minor position when the song calls for it, mix them up, slide between them, etc. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 7 Aug 2009 2:28 pm
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I didn't know that finding 3 notes could be so complicated until I saw this thread!
| Jeff Agnew wrote: |
| Instead of three positions, let's find them all. |
If you can play the chromatic scale on open strings, then you can play all 12 minor triads on open strings, altho 3 or 4 of them will be so poorly tempered that you can't use them.
To find each one, just check all the notes available on each string to see if one of them is in the triad. |
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John Polstra
From:
Lopez Island, WA, USA
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Posted 8 Aug 2009 8:25 am
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| Earnest Bovine wrote: |
If you can play the chromatic scale on open strings, then you can play all 12 minor triads on open strings, altho 3 or 4 of them will be so poorly tempered that you can't use them.
To find each one, just check all the notes available on each string to see if one of them is in the triad. |
True, but occasionally we'd like to play all three notes of the triad at the same time. 
John |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 8 Aug 2009 8:34 am
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Max,,,,my point exactly!!! There is no Key signature for a "minor key". (I thought that is what I said,,,maybe I was too sarcastic,,,sorry).
You said,,,"if the song is in A minor",,,,the song is NOT in A minor,,,there is no key signature for A minor,,,,the song is signatured in C,,,,even if the only chords in the whole song are A minor, D minor and E minor,,,,the song is in C. |
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