The Steel Guitar Forum

OK, guys here's the scoop. This experiment really generated lots of interest, the song has been downloaded over 500 times and the comments on the other thread have been very interesting.

I was going to go through the posts and see how many votes each guitar got, but Brint was nice enough to do it for me. Thanks Brint.

Here's his findings.

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So far, 17 people have stated "guesses" as to which guitar is the push/pull. Of those 17:

10 have chosen guitar #4,
6 have chosen #3,
1 has chosen #1,
and no one has chosen #2.

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So there they are

First Verse (0.00 - 0.55) Studio Pro (White)

First Chorus (0.55 - 1.45) Millennium (White - Flag graphics)

Second Verse (1.45 - 2.37) Emmons P/P (Black Lacquer)

Second Chorus (2.37-End) '74 Classic (White Mica)

This should dispel the belief that these old MSA had an inherently dark tone. This one will peel the paint off the walls, making the majority of voters think it was the Emmons.

Thanks guys for all your comments and votes, this was fun.

So my guess was right on. oh yea oh yea.
Maybe I don't have a tin ear after all

My problem Bent is that I have an eleven ear !

Well, I only made one guess, and that was which was the P/P, And I got it right!

Terry

I just knew which one I liked best. Figured it had to be black or dark brown. Black lacquer - that's what fooled me. To my ears, it sounded very different from all of those bright white guitars.

I couldn't hear much difference between the first two. Maybe it's because they both had Truetone pickups. I figured they were both red. Truetone pickups are HOT!

I think that the myth of the "inherently dark tone" of the old MSA's is rooted in Reece's jazz LPs where he deliberately dialed down the treble. It's just the tone he prefers. It's easy to get rid of paint peeling treble at the amp, but you can't add it if it's not there in the guitar to begin with. Those were very good guitars.

You should get a black MSA, Darvin.

This was great Darvin...thanks for posting the results!!

I'm sure there will be those who have excuses of why they couldn't identify which guitar was which as well as some who will feel justified in saying they can.

Now if someone could do another test similar to this with 4-6 different brands I feel sure the correct guesses would be reduced even further.

Even better yet if a test was done with say 6 brands and the brands kept secret until after the guesses....this would certainly prove this brand specific inherent tone thing is not identifiable without the eyes involved.

We could take anyone even somewhat familiar with motorcycles and line up say 6 streetbikes, one of them a Harley. Brands unknown & bikes unseen by the testee. Crank each one up, one at a time, rev it up then let it idle. When the Harley is cranked, there is no doubt which one it is. Identifying the other 5, even though they all may sound different, would be a guess for most.

Now that's an example of "brand specific" inherent sound/tone which I don't think exists in steel guitars.

We could take anyone even somewhat familiar with motorcycles and line up say 6 streetbikes, one of them a Harley. Brands unknown & bikes unseen by the testee. Crank each one up, one at a time, rev it up then let it idle. When the Harley is cranked, there is no doubt which one it is. Identifying the other 5 would be a guess for most.

Well, Sidney
Great comparison, pretty much sums it up.....

This has been a great tone test you might say, We should all keep in mind, Tone is heard in different ways by each one of us, and what is good to one is bad to another...I think that the thing Darvin did was great, and just wonder of all that "Guessed" would have bet the farm on it???
Now, for me Heres what I think is Great Tone, just a Steel, amp, And a Great Player...and trust me it's not the guitar, amp, it's the guy playing.....and" Hands".....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZoPTJNmiCw

Well, you sure fooled most of us, Darwin. I freely admit I was guessing based mainly on stereotypes and the common myths. This just shows the hazards of that.

My guess is

1 - Millenium
2 - 75 MSA Classic
3 - push pull
4 - MSA Studio Pro

1 and 4 could be swapped, have not played either Milly or Studio Pro, I have more confidence in 2 and 3, but not much overall expectation I am right on my choices

I got the push/pull right, but that was it!

I did like the Studio Pro tone, might have to try one of those.

On the push pull tone, everyone hears things differently, but I don't hear the p/p as bright, in fact I hear it as a very full tone with a lot of fundamental in the mix of harmonics. I have done some spectrum analysis that shows this also.

BTW my main guitar is not a p/p

They all sound fine to me. They're all in the "acceptable" range. All I really care about is what do you have to say musically? It's like saying someone's voice is a little higher, or lower, or has a different timbre than someone else's. So what? As long as they don't have a really annoying voice or distracting accent, then what do they have to say that is of interest? IMHO, "That's All that Matters".

Yeah, everyone wants to sound like Bob Dylan.

Darvin,

That was pretty interesting. I think that to round out the tone discussion of player vs guitar, an arrangement of three or four players contributing to the song on the same instrument/amp combo would be interseting. Maybe not even discuss that in the demonstration. It would be intersting to see if people realized that a player changed or if an instrument change took place...

Since Texas probably has more steel players per capita than the the other states, you've been appointed

Tom

It's like saying someone's voice is a little higher, or lower, or has a different timbre than someone else's. So what? As long as they don't have a really annoying voice or distracting accent, then what do they have to say that is of interest? IMHO, "That's All that Matters".

(Is this about becoming the "Master of Acceptable Harmonic Choices"?)

Listening to steel guitar equates more to listening to a lecture than hearing the singing of a song?

Are there vocalists — Alison Krauss? Nat Cole? George Jones? — whose singing voices are intrinsically, sonically pleasing, apart from which notes and syllables they're articulating? For instrumentalists to seek to produce a similar sonority which resonates with listeners is not just a frivolous distraction, is it?

Jim Cohen wrote:They all sound fine to me. They're all in the "acceptable" range. All I really care about is what do you have to say musically? It's like saying someone's voice is a little higher, or lower, or has a different timbre than someone else's. So what? As long as they don't have a really annoying voice or distracting accent, then what do they have to say that is of interest? IMHO, "That's All that Matters".

Now you're sounding like me, Jim! Keep that attitude up, and you'll be as popular as ants at a picnic.

Jeff Evans wrote:For instrumentalists to seek to produce a similar sonority which resonates with listeners is not just a frivolous distraction, is it?

No, but I'm saying that there is a wide range of sonorities that resonate with listeners and as long as you're within that range, listeners are (or should be) more interested in what you have to say musically.

As a biginner my opinion is not worth much but I liked the first sound the best.

Since I have never played anything but an MSA I did not feel qualified to make a "guess" as to which guitar was which. However in reading other posts it kind of disturbed me that some people seem to think that the old MSA's are second rate and don't compare to Emmons p/p or other guitars tonewise. After this comparison I am proud to be the owner of a 74 MSA since this comparison has proved that all the MSA naysayers can't tell the difference and in fact thought that the MSA Classic had the "best" tone. Best being an Emmons P/P which is considered by many to be the holy grail of tone. I am by no means putting down any PSG as I think they ALL sound good but I don't think I'll be getting rid of my MSA anytime soon. There is also a contingent on the forum that believe just the opposite of the Emmons p/p lovers and that is the MSA lovers who believe the MSA is the best PSG made. If nothing else, Darvin has put a smile on the faces of MSA affcianados.

As a biginner [sic] my opinion is not worth much . . .

When it comes to your own personal preferences, whose opinion could possibly be worth more?

What's your favourite colour? Can the most accomplished pro better tell you what your favourite colour is, or, even more implausibly, that colour distinctions do not exist?

Having missed the boat for the poll, I can't throw any "darn its" or "I told you so"s around, but I can say that I was surprised to hear how similarly sounding the two new MSA's were despite one of them being carbon fiber... I found all of them to have a very acceptable steel tone overall, and to be honest preferred the sound of the '74 classic!

Also about the whole P/P thing... wouldn't the guitar body's freedom to resonate affect the overall "sound" of the instrument far more than changer finger contact with the body? With how thick the changer axles are in PSGs, it seems that "enough" vibration would transfer to the body to make changer finger contact insignificant.
[edit to add] So with most post Permanent/Bigsby era guitars- including P/Ps- having other than the changer, the same body construction and axel assembly... they would seem to have more similar sound traits amongst each other than say a GFI and a Bigsby

I didn't vote, due to my lack of experience playing. Hearing the intrinsic differences between a Classic MSA, Studio Pro or an Emmons P/P is still beyond me. But the post about color made me think. I used to work with a brilliant graphic designer who was red/green color blind (and also very hard of hearing). Although he had this handicap, he somehow could distinguish the color difference. Kinda like shades of grey. So I was fascinated by this experiment, and I imagine those who guessed were using these shades of grey subtleties as their deciding factor. I agree that your favorite color is yours alone, just like the tone of your favorite steel guitar. Perception is thrown out the window when a personal bias leans one toward a particular tone though, which now days can be very closely mimicked thru simulation, modelling, etc. I think more blind tests (or double blind, as Mr Mudgett suggested) would help to disprove or prove the uniqueness and identifiability of different guitars, pickups, amps, FX etc. Looking forward to more scientific experiments in the future here! Oh BTW, b0b, Im glad my guitar is black! No shade of grey there.

I did not try to pick out the Emmons or the different MSA's. I listened very carefully and picked out the one that I thought sounded best..(to me). I stated that it was the 3rd one that sounded best to me. I would have been perfectly content if the one that I picked was a MSA....But it wasn't.. So what did this tell me?

It confirms to me that THERE IS a difference in the sound of these guitars and the one that I prefer is the Emmons. This reinforces to me what nearly everyone says about the Push Pull.. It sounds better


I want to put a disclaimer with this post. I am not a good player and I do not have an axe to grind. I love the sound of all steel guitars. (well ,some better than others obviously)

This is only my opinion and what is that worth....nothing

Thank you for listening..Bob

Edited to add..I think that bOb was just clowning around with us on picking the colors. But he also stated and made it clear that he liked the 3rd one ...by a good margin

I'm with b0b. Get a black Millennium (that's what I have )

Darvin, this and the comparison thread and your mp3 was fascinating to say the least! Very nice and tasteful playing as well. I could listen to your playing all day long. The comparison has given me hope! I have a 76 Classic and a newly acquired 75 that I'm picking up tomorrow.
I know I have to put a lot of work into my practicing and a lot of playing time, a real commitment, and I'm praying that God will see fit to bless my hands the way He has blessed yours!
I look forward to meeting you soon.
God Bless You even more than He already has!
Doug

Darvin….The results of your sound samples of different guitars is consistent with that which I have been witnessing for the past 36 years, in that a consistent inherent sound/tone does not exist in any specific brand of guitar..

where is the original clip?


bob

Darvin Willhoite wrote:OK, guys here's the scoop. This experiment really generated lots of interest, the song has been downloaded over 500 times and the comments on the other thread have been very interesting.

I was going to go through the posts and see how many votes each guitar got, but Brint was nice enough to do it for me. Thanks Brint.

Here's his findings.

---------

So far, 17 people have stated "guesses" as to which guitar is the push/pull. Of those 17:

10 have chosen guitar #4,
6 have chosen #3,
1 has chosen #1,
and no one has chosen #2.

----------

So there they are

First Verse (0.00 - 0.55) Studio Pro (White)

First Chorus (0.55 - 1.45) Millennium (White - Flag graphics)

Second Verse (1.45 - 2.37) Emmons P/P (Black Lacquer)

Second Chorus (2.37-End) '74 Classic (White Mica)

This should dispel the belief that these old MSA had an inherently dark tone. This one will peel the paint off the walls, making the majority of voters think it was the Emmons.

Thanks guys for all your comments and votes, this was fun.