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Topic: How many knees & pedals on the E9 neck... |
Savell
From:
Slocomb, AL
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Posted 9 Jul 2009 4:22 am |
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How many knees and pedals would be required to completely eliminate the movement of the steel bar and yet still be able to play without abandoning the standard/common/familiar sounds that have become recognizable as the pedal steel guitar or is it even possible?
On the surface, it would seem reasonable, by simply applying numeric logic.
For example…
the required chord note quantities (3, 5, etc.)
the octave variances (8,12, etc.)
the strings (10, might take an extended to 12)
We know that one can pick the melody, but to give the listener an un-prohibitive display of expected style of let’s say the classic country sound.
I am not contemplating this build; just curiously trying to picture it in my mind. Even though I know this is not a new thought to some, it is to me and it’s bugging the mess out of me because I can’t see it yet.
Think of the possibilities, if the left hand was free to enhance the delivery in some way. (We probably do not want to explore the left hand abilities to any other purpose besides the music - for apparent reasons..)
Savell |
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Russ Wever
From:
Kansas City
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Posted 9 Jul 2009 4:56 am
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Ed Packard, get your
slide-rule out.  |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 9 Jul 2009 6:03 am
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If you don't want to move your bar while playing a steel guitar maybe you should just take up the piano.  |
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John Gould
From:
Houston, TX Now in Cleveland TX
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Posted 9 Jul 2009 7:19 am
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The sound of moving the bar is part of
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| the standard/common/familiar sounds that have become recognizable as the pedal steel guitar |
The motion of the pedals and levers in conjunction with the movement of the bar is what makes the Pedal steel sound that we all want to hear. Before the pedals it was all movement of the bar and for the innovative players the use of fingers and other methods to bend or pull strings to other pitches.
_________________
A couple of guitars
Fender GTX 100 Fender Mustang III Fender Blues Jr. Boss Katana MKII 50
Justice Pro Lite and Sho Bud Pro II |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 9 Jul 2009 7:33 am
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John,
You are absolutely correct!
When I play a song, sometimes I do a bar movement to get the note even though it is available with a pedal or lever at the fret. This puts feeling and soul into the song. I think that playing a steel guitar with no bar movement would result in the sound being quite sterile. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Stu Schulman
From:
Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)
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Posted 9 Jul 2009 9:31 am
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I knew it I'm one pedal short...Story of my life. 
_________________
Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952. |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 9 Jul 2009 4:08 pm
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You should be able to find everything you need at any fret, without moving the bar!
Hence the word 'FIND'
_________________
A.K.A Chappy. |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 9 Jul 2009 4:37 pm
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| If you want to play without a bar, just put a pickup on a pedal harp. |
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Savell
From:
Slocomb, AL
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Posted 9 Jul 2009 5:54 pm
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Hey Erv. Thanks for your input. Actually I have been playing the piano for over 40 years. And I might as well admit that I do much better of a job on the piano. However, my question addresses the potential of the psg rather than the preference of instruments.
John & Alan, I have no desire to play without a bar. My thoughts are that a pedal or knee pull would simulate the slide of the bar. Unfortunately the length of the slide sound would be limited to the stretch. But I am sure there are many that could be mimicked by using more than one string in a sequence of pedal/knee actions.
Larry, I agree that everything is there. How to get it is the fun part.
Bob, I assume that you are serious. Would you be thinking of an extended E9 on a 12 string?
Thanks,
Savell |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 9 Jul 2009 6:35 pm
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I often play whole songs at the 12th fret with finger harmonics (no bar). My copedent is 5 pedals, 5 knee levers. It's not optimal (I don't have a C note), but I'm sure that it could be done without any additional pedals or levers.
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David Higginbotham
From:
Lake Charles, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 9 Jul 2009 7:05 pm
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bOb said:
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| 5 pedals, 5 knee levers. |
I totally agree! |
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Roual Ranes
From:
Atlanta, Texas, USA
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Posted 9 Jul 2009 7:10 pm
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14 strings. 10 pedals. 6 KL.
or go back to 10 strings, 3 pedals, 3KL and be satisfied. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 9 Jul 2009 10:31 pm
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| I agree with John and Erv, the sound of moving the bar is an important part of the instrument. With 3 pedals and 4 or 5 knee levers we already have a complete scale and some chromatics at a single fret. Yet, we still like to move the bar for phrasing. There are 3 different sounds we get: 1) the harp-like sound of picking the strings without bends or bar movement, 2) bending the strings with the pedals and levers (the pedal steel sound), 3) sliding the bar up and down the neck (the lap steel sound). Accomplished players will use all three sounds in their phrasing. Even if you add pedals and levers and strings until you have a complete chromatic scale at a single fret, most players would still want to slide the bar around for that unique steel guitar sound. I play piano and pedal steel. I wouldn't want to play steel like a piano or harp. Sliding the bar around is one of the main reasons I play steel. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 10 Jul 2009 6:21 am
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David,
What you mentioned is what makes our instrument truly unique. There is NO other intrument like our instrument. The ability to find notes and chords at SO many different places puts us in a special category. When I work up an arrangement, I rough out a tab before playing it but, chances are, when I sit down and play it, I wind up doing quite a bit of revision. I may have the notes and chords correct on the initial version but it just doesn/t "play" right. Thank heavens that we have the 3 different options you mentioned in your post. |
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Barry Hyman
From:
upstate New York, USA
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Posted 10 Jul 2009 5:51 pm b0b and David are right as always
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I agree with b0b totally. I have an S-12 with 5 and 5, and I can get a chromatic scale (25 frets, two+ octaves) and every major and minor triad, all 12 minor seventh chords, and 11 out of 12 dominant seventh chords, without moving the bar. (I get the C by combining the A pedal with the B to Bb vertical knee lever.) But I greatly prefer to move the bar, at least most of the time, and so I completely agree with David Doggett as well.
_________________
I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 10 Jul 2009 8:05 pm
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I think the OP made it quite clear it wasn't a stylistically-related question - just one of....well, I guess math more than anything else. Not "do you WANT to do it?", just "how can it be done?"
I've thought about the same thing, but I can't come up with an answer - the second math comes up my head goes dark....
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 11 Jul 2009 8:31 pm Re: How many knees & pedals on the E9 neck...
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| Savell wrote: |
| We know that one can pick the melody, but to give the listener an un-prohibitive display of expected style of let’s say the classic country sound. |
I don't think you can get that without moving the bar. So it seems he is interested in both the math and the phrasing or style. |
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Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
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Posted 13 Jul 2009 4:31 am
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Julian Tharp (sp)...Danny Boy
_________________
Bill Ford S12 CLR, S12 Lamar keyless, Misc amps&toys Sharp Covers
Steeling for Jesus now!!! |
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Robin Archer
From:
Califon, , USA
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Posted 13 Jul 2009 6:03 am Not Moving the Bar
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Glissando is what it's all about. Otherwise play piano. 
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That's a Gibson Electra Harp; four pedals, 8 string, C6th |
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Ulf Edlund
From:
Umeå, Sweden
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Posted 13 Jul 2009 10:54 am
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It is named "steel guitar" and the bar is made to be moved. Eliminate the steel and all you've got left is a guitar 
_________________
1983 Emmons D10 SKH, Carter SD10, Nashville 112, Session 500, ProfexII, Lapsteels, GT-Beard reso, guitars of all kinds...
http://www.myspace.com/ulfedlund |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 13 Jul 2009 11:45 am
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| Quote: |
| How many knees and pedals would be required to completely eliminate the movement of the steel bar and yet still be able to play without abandoning the standard/common/familiar sounds that have become recognizable as the pedal steel guitar or is it even possible? ... On the surface, it would seem reasonable, by simply applying numeric logic. ... We know that one can pick the melody, but to give the listener an un-prohibitive display of expected style of let’s say the classic country sound. |
I don't really think this is a mathematical question. You seem to be asking if it's possible to get all the classic country pedal steel moves, in an arbitrary key, without moving the bar at all, which is exactly the same question as being able to play them, in some key, without a bar at all.
To me, I guess this depends on what you consider to be "all the classic country pedal steel moves". I suppose that if you restrict to just "being able to pick the right end-notes" and limit the scope of what constitutes "classic country pedal steel moves", you can come up with an answer. But to me, it's much more than simple note choices, but how those notes are expressed and put together with each other. I think there are a lot of classic moves for which one could, in principle, "get the end-notes", but still sound completely different than the classic move being emulated.
For a trivial example - think of moving the very simple A+B pedals-up Emaj triad (or whatever part of it) on strings 8, 6, and 5, by glissing up 3 frets to the first inversion using A+F, and then again glissing up 4 more frets to give the second inversion with A+B pedals-down. It's totally trivial getting the "final notes" without doing anything with the bar, or even the pedals or levers - but it sounds completely different. How would you emulate that sound just using pedals and levers but no bar movement? The types of changes needed to make this sound remotely the same seem completely impractical to me, and nothing like the way pedal steels are currently made.
So it seems to me that if you want to talk purely about discrete note choices, you can do this. But if you want to talk about really emulating the classic moves, you can't.
If the goal is to simply figure out the minimum number of pedals and levers necessary to get the right end-notes, one would need a guitar with an extraordinary note range going purely across the neck, and then one could combinatorially figure out how to arrange pedals and levers to give the minimum number of changes to get any scalar or chordal pattern desired. It strikes me that the resulting pedal and lever moves wouldn't remotely resemble a current pedal steel, nor would the sound remotely resemble the sound of a typical country pedal steel player, either.
I think this is part of the reason that any time I've ever heard a synth try to emulate either a crazy-bending electric guitar or classic pedal steel, it sounded fake. To me, there's no substitute for a guitar player bending strings (for the guitar example) or a steel player moving the bar (for the pedal steel example.) I think something huge is missing because the physical aspect of the sound production is being ignored.
Just my take. |
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