Third string split?

Phil Halton · From: Holyoke, Massachusetts, USA

I have just recently discovered the marvel and wonder of the 5th and 6th string splits on my Carter Pro S10. Well, I always knew about them, but I didn't know how they could be used to facilitate playing the harmonized major scale all over the neck.

This gets kinda weird and long-winded, , so hang in with me til I get to the actual question.

Basically, I see that using the 5th string split (A pedal and V lever)allows you to substitute the A, B, V pedal-shaped minor chords 1 fret back from the E-lever minor chords in the chord scale. So, for example, for an E minor in the key of G, you could use pedals AB&V at fret 7, instead of the E lever at fret 8.

This lays the chord scale out in a more "grid-like" manner that resembles the stepwise pattern of the major scale itself.

And, with the addition of the 6th string split, It Aligns the main component harmonies of the various chords in the chord scale onto a single fret instead of them being scattered across two or three frets. This cuts way down on bar movement and makes everything line up in a uniform fretwise pattern.

One example, then I'll get to my question.

In the key of G for example, at 3rd fret with AB pedals for the IV chord in the chord scale, you have the harmonies of Fa, and LA stacked one above the other on grips 5 & 6, and 4 & 5. DO lines up on fret 3 on grip 3 & 4, and 6 & 8, with LA down on grip 8 & 10 etc --everything lines up on the same fret.

At fret 5 though, with the V chord, you have SO and TE on 4 5 & 6, but RE doesn't line up on fret 5, its back on fret 4 with the E-raise lever on grips 3&4, and 6&8. But, using the 6th string split, RE now lines up on fret 5. and so on with the other chords in the chord scale. Using the 5th and 6th string splits enables all the harmonies of a given chord in the chord scale to line up on that chords fret.

For me, that makes life so much easier--I don't have to think about the fretwise pattern so much because its always two frets except between the III and IV chord positions, and the VII and I chord positions where its one fret. That's what I mean about it resembling the stepwise pattern of the major scale itself.

Okay, here's the question concerning a 3rd string split. the harmonies on grip 3 & 4 are the only ones that can't be aligned onto the fret of their associated chord--for 4 of those harmonies (RE, ME, LA and TE) , they're always one fret below the chord's fret. In places, they align to the chord's fret out on grip 1 & 2, but not in all situations.

What's involved in making the 6th string split (B pedal with 'RKL' lever) also give a half tone lower on the 3rd string? Why isn't this standard on guitars with 6th string splits--why only the 6th and not its octave? Is it soley a mechanical consideration?

Thanks for hanging in there with my long-winded post -- hope I didn't fry anybody's noodle.

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Since I have that 3d string lower - same as for 6th string, I can share my experience.

- wears down and break 3d string a bit faster.
- longer and heavier pull to lower both 3d and 6th.
- needs extra rod (compensator) to tune 3d and 6th full tone lower perfectly.

Otherwise it works great and I use that 3d/6th lower a lot.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I don't quite understand. Why press the B pedal at all if you're trying to lower both G# strings? It seems counter-intuitive to raise a string to get a lower.

Most changers can't handle lowering the high G# a full step, which is what you'd have to do to get the split. Why not set up a pedal or knee lever to lower both G#'s to G, if that's what you need musically?

Lots of people raise the first string to G on the lever that lowers the 6th string. That's another way to look at it.
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Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

The changer really has to be balanced well to make a G# to F# lowering work perfectly on 3d string. Some steel's changer can't even handle that for 6th string, as they either don't have adjustable return springs or they're not hinged up for the long throw of lower-finger on 3d.

My Dekley handles full step lower (and a bit more) alright and is easy to tune.

Musically I'm not sure what's best, as some times I'd prefer to raise 1st string a half step and sometimes the full step / half step split on 3d suits me best. Running out of levers and limbs, so it's problematic to get both.

Bent Romnes · From: London,Ontario, Canada

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

I lower the 6th string (with a split) but not the 3rd on my Franklin. When I ordered the guitar I wanted the 3rd string lower but Mr Franklin talked me out of it, for the negative reasons that have been noted on this thread.

Rick Winfield · From: Pickin' beneath the Palmettos

The more I know,
he more I don't know !!
The PSG is truly an amazing intstrument, with limitless possibilities and positions, all waiting there, for your "gliss" into that sweet sound !
Rick

Phil Halton · From: Holyoke, Massachusetts, USA

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

Phil--my reason for lowering 3 is different from yours but here is my experience.

It is, for sure, a long throw but my Carter can do it. My Fessenden can't. Close but not quite.

I do it on a different lever than the 6th string lower. Your logic in your presentation above does not really interest me (nothing implied---it just doesn't apply to my mindset) and in fact my use of the 3 lower/split is for the purpose of lowering the 3rd to G at the same time as I am raising the 6th string to A so I definitely don't want it on the 6th string lower lever.

Incidentally, the F# of this split is very out of tune if you don't use the extra rod for a split tuner---more so than the average pedal/lever split combo. In other words you can sometimes get by with the 6th string split without any additional hardware---it can sometimes work out close enough. But on the 3rd string, for some reason the physics are all out of whack.

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Bent, there is something wrong with your changer, and all like it - including mine. They bend the strings Smile

Strings should be stretched and slackened, not bended, when we push our pedals and levers. All pedal steels should be built with linear changers, to minimize or completely avoid that problem.

FYI: I use .0105 D'Adario as 3d string - deviation from the regular D'Adario ProSteel XL set I use. These thin strings seem to hold well for 3d, in part because they make the throw needed to raise 1/2 and lower 1/1 slightly shorter. Sounds good too.

Bent Romnes · From: London,Ontario, Canada

Georg SO THAT'S why my head has been churning with thoughts of a linear changer the last few days. Makes sense really. But to make this old brain come up with something..well that's the problem Laughing

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Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Bent, not to worry. I'll design the linear changer ... if you build it Winking

Larry Bressington · From: Nebraska

I use a very obsolete 6th string drop 1/2 tone on left vertical.
I went to the full tone last year for about 6 months as an exsperiment, but because an 'adjustable half stop' on the knee in hard to judge due to pressure, i went back to a half-step drop on the 6 instead of the full tone, because i had found many pockets with it previously i lost those pockets with a full tone drop.

It seems for every move forward with a copedant, you gain some new moves and advantages, but then you loose the others.

I have since gone back to a simple copedant which is standard E9 with some current knees, like 1+2 string raise on LKR.

I have exsperimented with the 3rd string drop, but i diden't like the tone of the string.

I diden't like having a split, it felt very awkward pushing down on pedals and raising the knee at the same time, so i cancelled that idea and went back to old school, i'm sure i am mising many options, but at the same time, a steel guitar is for sure a 'Handfull' and i prefer it simpler underneath.

We all have different idea's, and they are all good, lets keep them coming lads!
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Bent Romnes · From: London,Ontario, Canada

Rick Winfield · From: Pickin' beneath the Palmettos

I've been thinking of changing the lever which raises 1 a whole step while lowering 6 a whole. I want to use is to lower both G#'s (6+3) to G. I think it will enable me to get a bluesy sound without the 6 string split, (to a b7 with B ped) which I don't care for.
I've also reached the point where I see the need for the Frankiln pedal. At the present time, I'm using my A pedal, and hitting my C pedal, (right foot when needed) for the 4 string raise, keeping string 6 "unchanged"
i.e.
A Ped engaged pick 8,6,5,4, hit Ped C, and release.
Rick

Jerry Bull · From: Republic, MO, USA

I've had the 3rd and 6th lowered a full tone on one of my Carters, which was very easy to do with absolutely no alterations. I loved it mainly because I could pull both knees together and have the V major in the open position, which was a real nice transition back into the I chord. Plus had some cool melody potentials. I had the 3 and 6 lower on LKR and lowered my E's with RKL. And when I used the B pedal in there somewhere it sounded really cool. I like this thread.
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