Tuning C6th temper

Eric Philippsen · Post by **Eric Philippsen** » 20 May 2009 12:49 pm

I tune C6th using the "standard" Newman temper. Always been quick and easy. However, I'm doing quite a lot more on the back neck now and find that my ear is no longer "comfortable" with that temper. I don't know, maybe my ear is more discerning now.

I know there are various ways to tune the front neck and I have my method that works for me and my ear. I just tune my E's to a standard and then go from there using various harmonics and groupings.

But I haven't seen much for C6th. Other than the Newman preset, how do others tune that neck? What method, steps, etc?

Thanks. I do appreciate it.

Bobby Snell · Post by **Bobby Snell** » 20 May 2009 3:36 pm

I like having the A's and E's right at '440,' so I might nudge the C's and G's a little sharp. Tempering any of the pulls are based on how they react with that as a base, but I like have the 9th-string pull to E at '440' as well as the 10th-string pull to A.

The reason is that a lot of bands will have bluesy or rock tunes in those keys, and I can use the open strings; the same reasoning made me switch back down to '440' as the starting point for E9.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 20 May 2009 4:28 pm

Here's the method I use:
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Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 20 May 2009 4:43 pm

Me too.

KENNY KRUPNICK · Post by **KENNY KRUPNICK** » 22 May 2009 1:46 pm

b0b,what would those numbers be in "hertz"?

Post by **b0b** » 22 May 2009 2:01 pm

I don't know. Try 5 cents = 1 Hz and see how that sounds.

Bo Legg · Post by **Bo Legg** » 23 May 2009 11:38 am

my 2 cents at 4 cents per 1 Hz

Post by **b0b** » 23 May 2009 1:47 pm

Well, what I mean is that since a cents scale has notches at 5 cents, and a Hz scale has notches at 1 Hz, match up the notches. You'll end up a little closer to ET, but the meantone theory is still the same.

I wouldn't want to try to eyeball 2.5 cents and 5 cents on a meter where the markings are at 4 cent (1 Hz) intervals. I'd go for 2 cents and 4 cents instead (.5 Hz and 1 Hz). The evenness of the calculation is more important than the actual interval.

KENNY KRUPNICK wrote:b0b,what would those numbers be in "hertz"?

I don't know exactly but here it is in "tuner notches":
[tab] P4 p5 p6 p7 p8
D =0
E -1 F +1½
C +1 D =0
A -½ B -1½ B -1½
G +½ F# -2
E -1 Eb +2½
C +1 C# -2½
A -½ B -1½
F +1½ F# -2 E -1
C +1 D =0 A -½[/tab]
The knee levers for B and C# use the same values as the pedals for those notes. If you have a Bb lever, it should be +2 notches.

I'm not going to commit to a value for an Ab/G# lever. It's either +3 or -3 notches, depending on how you use it.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 23 May 2009 9:39 pm

Though it hasn't been stated in this thread, the method by which b0b's (and Earnest's) numbers are arrived at is the "sixth-comma meantone" system. The Bb lever should be tuned to +10 cents by that system.

The theoretical basis for that system is well discussed (for those who can hang with it) here:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... ne&start=0
I'll just say that the results of applying that system sound great to me in E9th tuning as well.

In practice, the system goes like this: Once you set a given note as "0" on the tuner, tune the note down a fifth from there to +2.5 (cents), tune the note down a fifth from THAT note to +2.5 from IT (that is, to +5), tune the note down a fifth from THERE to +7.5, etc.---Tune the note UP a fifth from the "0" note to -2.5, and so forth as on the "+" side.

I don't know why in each tuning the system is built around the ninth of the tuning (F# for E9th, D for C6th) being set as "0" on the tuner. But it works!:)

While this system leads to the maximum pleasingness of the maximum number of intervals and chords (at least for me), sixth-comma meantone, like any tempered tuning other than Equal Temperament, is imperfect--it breaks down at one note of the twelve notes in the chromatic scale--in the case of E9th, that note is C. In the case of C6th, it's G#/Ab, as b0b noted. If you have the "breakdown" note in your copedent for either tuning, as a primary change or as a split, you'll have to tune it to what your ear likes for what you use it for, as b0b said.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 24 May 2009 12:30 am

Brint Hannay wrote: I don't know why in each tuning the system is built around the ninth of the tuning (F# for E9th, D for C6th) being set as "0" on the tuner.

That choice makes about half the notes higher then ET, and half lower than ET. So on the average it's close to the tuning of the other instruments.

Bo Legg · Post by **Bo Legg** » 28 May 2009 11:58 am

b0b

I wouldn't want to try to eyeball 2.5 cents and 5 cents on a meter where the markings are at 4 cent (1 Hz) intervals. I'd go for 2 cents and 4 cents instead (.5 Hz and 1 Hz). The evenness of the calculation is more important than the actual interval.

For my 2 cents this sounds like the way to go.

Jim Meiring · Post by **Jim Meiring** » 1 Jun 2009 3:37 am

I know many of you will disagree, but I tune both necks only slightly sharp on the thirds. This is easy and to my ear works very well.

Post by **b0b** » 1 Jun 2009 7:19 am

Jim Meiring wrote:I know many of you will disagree, but I tune both necks only slightly sharp on the thirds. This is easy and to my ear works very well.

Slightly sharp of what?

Jim Meiring · Post by **Jim Meiring** » 1 Jun 2009 7:32 am

on the E9th I tune the G#s about 4 cents # and on the C 6th I tune both E's also about 4 cents sharp of 440. The E 9th tuning was suggested to me by Charlie Ward. I just tried it on the C6th as well. The chords on the 6th neck sound full and even to me. Tempered tuning usually has some pitfalls. This seems to work for me.

Paddy Long · Post by **Paddy Long** » 2 Jun 2009 1:30 am

Eric - you might want to check out the sweetened presets in the line of Peterson tuners -- they cover both E9th and C6th, and the stroborack also has a preset for the 12 string Uni !

Eric Philippsen · Post by **Eric Philippsen** » 2 Jun 2009 7:32 am

Paddy,

I use both a Stroboflip and, when using my rack system, a Stroborack. So, I use the single preset on those for C6th. It's my understanding that the C6th preset on those is actually Newman's preset. Whether it is or not, that's the preset/temper that has started to bother me.

I thought I'd give all the other's suggestions a try, although I find Jim's method puzzling. Jim, you mention tuning your thirds 4 cents sharp. I've always tuned my thirds flat as, I think, have most other players.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 2 Jun 2009 7:38 am

Jim Meiring wrote:on the E9th I tune the G#s about 4 cents # and on the C 6th I tune both E's also about 4 cents sharp of 440.

A lot of people tune the root notes sharp. Are you saying that you tune the thirds sharp of the roots, or the same as the roots?

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 2 Jun 2009 7:49 am

This one's from years ago:

Post by **b0b** » 2 Jun 2009 7:54 am

Wow, Erv. Almost every note on that chart is flat of the 440 standard. If I tuned to that, I think I'd have to aim sharp all the time to play in tune with a band.

I'd add 1.5 to all the numbers if I wanted to use that method.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 2 Jun 2009 8:18 am

Bob,
My E9th chart is also tuned down from the 440:

Post by **b0b** » 2 Jun 2009 9:29 am

I'm guessing that you don't use the open strings very often, Erv.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 2 Jun 2009 9:49 am

Bob,
You are correct!
I try to avoid them with a passion.

KENNY KRUPNICK · Post by **KENNY KRUPNICK** » 2 Jun 2009 11:20 am

On the last chart for E9th there Erv, if you move everything up 1/2 hertz, meaning "E" notes at 440.5 that should put you where you need to be. If you do this, push your A-B pedals down and the 4th string should drop no further than 440.My Zum only drops to just above 440 with pedals down. This is tuning the "E"notes to 440.5,and everything else tempered as your chart shows,but up 1/2 hertz.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 2 Jun 2009 11:28 am

Kenny,
That might be a good idea.
I think what I put up there was Jeff Newman's original tuning chart.
Later on, I believe, he came up with one where he had the E's at 441.5

KENNY KRUPNICK · Post by **KENNY KRUPNICK** » 6 Jun 2009 5:59 pm

The latest tuning chart Jeff Newman had out was tuning the 4th,and 8th strings "E" to 442.5.I've heard alot of comments on that's too sharp,meaning that whatever guitar he tuned like that may have had a considerable amount of bodydrop.I tuned like that for awhile,and really got to listening,and it was sharp to everyone else that was in the group I was playing for at the time.So I tried the 440.5 on the "E's",and it works quite well.