Multi hole Push/pull bell cranks?

memphislim · From: Austin, Texas

Do these exist? I'm wanting to balance the pulls on each pedal and then between the pedals and find that the simple 2 hole bellcranks just don't cut the mustard. Having the 3rd string raise half way before the 6th starts moving just doesn't sound musical to me and and I don't want to "play around" this if I don't have to. Has anyone got any suggestions? I know there are things that can be done with the existing push/pull components but you can only do so much. I imagine that's one of the major reasons the all pull design took over.

Slim

Lynn Stafford · From: Ridgefield, WA USA

Hi Slim,

Do you also lower your 6th string? If you do, you'll have a little trouble avoiding the type of issue you're describing, because of the slack required. If you don't lower that string (if you haven't already done so) you can just add a short length of "shock spring" to the 6th string raise rod only, between the bell crank swivel and set collar. About 3/8-1/2" might be a good place to start, depending on which of the three finger holes you're using for the raise rod hook. I hope this helps Smile

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memphislim · From: Austin, Texas

Lynn, not sure what the spring would accomplish? What I'm trying to do is have the 6 and 3 string start and stop at the same time. Likewise the 5 and 10 on A pedal and the 4 and 5 on the C. In addition, the A and B pedal having the same travel so that the combos of 3 and 5, 5 and 6, 6 and 10 all start and stop at the same time sounding musical the whole way.

I do lower the 6 but could take that off if need be.

Peter Freiberger · From: California, USA

You can get pretty much any two strings on a P/P to begin and end at the same time with the right length spring on the one with shorter travel.

You're not far from Jim Palenscar's shop in Oceanside. He does very good set up work on P/P's and can save you a lot of time and frustration.

If you want no slack on your A and B pedals, you might consider raising string 7 rather than lowering 6, and not lowering string 5. If so, consider using a .026w for string 6 for a pull length more like string 3.

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

The spring added to the 6th string raise, makes the pull less efficient and thus longer. The reason why is that, in addition to stretching the 6th string a 1/2 step, you also have to compress the spring.

This lengthens the throw of the 6th string G#-->A change. If you use the right amount of shock spring, you'll get the 6th string to start and finish in tandem with the 3rd string G#-->A. The trade-off is that doing this will add a touch of increased pedal resistance (which you would also get if you had a stacked bell-crank).

memphislim · From: Austin, Texas

Got it, makes sense. Fact I knew that but then forgot it. Getting old I guess. I think I originally took the springs out because the tuning was inconsistent as the springs wear or break. Sometimes you push the pedals and it's on pitch, the next time it's not. Any of you experience that?

Peter Freiberger · From: California, USA

You're not the first to try taking the springs out, but they usually have to be there. Some put a spring on every change, but I like to set the longest pull or push to just bottom out and use as short as possible a spring on the other string (or strings, if you're moving more than two). That minimizes the bit of additional effort to compress the spring, and gives the most positive "feel", IMHO. With trial and error the right spring length will have both strings starting and stopping together.

Except for half stopped strings (usually 2 and 4 on E9) be sure raise and lower fingers are stopping at the body or lower tuning screw or tuning may be inconsistent. Plus that contact, according to many, is crucial to the P/P tone.

If you're not mechanically inclined, have limited time or patience, or don't have an assortment of springs, a trip to see Jim is highly recommended. Working on P/P's can make you crazy. It can also make you crazy.

Benton Allen · From: Muscle Shoals, Alabama, USA

Doug Palmer · From: Greensboro, North Carolina, USA

You can accellerate the travel by drilling a new hole on a bell-crank and moving the swivel down. Let it rotate on a crossbar, put in line with your current raise rod and you are in business. I've used this on guitars raising F# to G# to shorten the knee lever travel. It'll work on a pedal as well.

Doug Palmer
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Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

There is not enough "meat" on a push/pull bellcrank to drill another hole further down.
The swivel requires a 5/32" hole in the bellcrank to attach it and, unless your're a better shot with a drill than I am, it would be neer impossible to get another hole drilled.

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

Re: 2 hole pullers

I've seen it done, but I don't understand the benefit of using it in this application. The change in mechanical advantage at the 3rd string will yield a stiffer knee lever resistance than would result from adding a 6th string compression spring. Although the former may give a shorter pedal throw.

To me it's a "wash". Try the shock spring first as it's the easier route....if you don't like it try the bell crank mod.

Peter Freiberger · From: California, USA

I have also seen Emmons bellcranks drilled for a second swivel but there's very little meat left. The Sho Bud bellcranks pictured in this thread work better.

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=159385

A simpler alternative I like for a faster raise is to make an extended bellcrank.

memphislim · From: Austin, Texas

Thanks for all the help guys. Here's what I did. I tried the stock Emmons P/P shock spings in all lengths on the 6th string. These springs are just too stiff to accomplish the task. They don't give enough so the string just raises too fast. I went to the hard ware store and found several lighter springs to try. I finally had to put two 1 inch springs on there and it's still isn't perfect. I had to try several different ones, in different lenghts and the best I could get with what I had on hand was 2 total inches of a lighter than stock spring. The 3rd string still travels a little bit after the 6th has stopped but it playable now.

BTW, the 3rd string is on the whole closest to the changer axle and the 6th is on the furthest.

Mike Cass · Posted 13 Jun 2009 6:31 am

p/p bellcranks from Emmons Co. work just fine for what we call an "idler" crank, as Doug Palmer described in its use. Drilling the starter hole to lower the swivel takes some patience and measurement but definitely doable and would be the solution to your problem of timing these 2 string on your p/p guitar. Having string 6 stop before 3 isnt good though. It works against the body stop and could cause the 6th string raise finger to snap, or at least to dig into the changer cutout and cause problems as well. Whatever happens, they have to stop at the same time and be concurrent with the pedal stops to maintain tuning integrity. No tolerance on that that I can see. I do have a few of those cranks which I drilled successfully, should you need one.
good luck,
MC

Bill Plemmons · From: Simpsonville, SC

I did basically the same thing for the F# to G# pull on my P/P. But instead of drilling a large hole in the idler bellcrank for a swivel, I drilled a #30 hole halfway between the swivel and crossrod holes, put a 90 degree bend in the end of a piece of 1/8 stainless welding rod, drilled it for a 1/16 cotter pin. Has worked great for 30 years.

Bill

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

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