Duesenberg Multibender with C6 tuning?

Roman Sonnleitner · Post by **Roman Sonnleitner** » 18 May 2009 2:44 pm

I currently play an 8-string lap-steel in C6 tuning (ACEGACEG low-to-high), and while I'm no virtuoso, I can make it work very well with the kind of music I'm playing (country rock, rockabilly, alt.country, singer-songwriter folk-y stuff, etc.).

I also got a pedal steel more than a year ago - I love the sounds that instrument can produce (esp. the more athmospheric types of sounds, eg. as used by bands like Calexico), but I'm really getting nowhere with my playing - this instrument is SO counter-intuitive, can't play it without constantly having musical theory on my mind, that really takes the fun out of it. At my current rate of progress I don't think I'll be able to play it in a band setting for another decade... Also, I play a lot at small coffehoues, jam sessions, tiny pubs, etc., and the PSG is so unwieldy.

So, since learning about the Duesenberg Multibender, I've been really intrigued - I'm thinking about selling that unloved PSG, and building another lap steel around the Multibender; unfortunately, there's no 8-string version, but I guess I could limit myself to 6 string - with my 8-string LS the two lowest strings (A and C) are my least-used ones - I guess I could live with only haveing EGACEG (low to high) or possibly the middle 6 strings of my 8-string (CEGACE low to high).

But on what strings would I use the 2 or 3 bending levers of the Multibender? The demo videos only show it used with standard guitar tuning and with open E tuning, not with C6 - would a device like that be useful at all with C6, or should I learn a new LS tuning like Open E or E7th, to get some PSG-ish sound with the Duesy bender?

James Mayer · Post by **James Mayer** » 18 May 2009 2:59 pm

I hear you. I love pedal steel but feel like it's more of a pain in the ass than it's worth. I'll probably be building my own steel in the next year or so and will base it around the Duesenberb bender system. My current knee/elbow system works great, but it wouldn't hurt to have another steel. I'd really like one with dual pickups.

Roger Shackelton · Post by **Roger Shackelton** » 18 May 2009 4:12 pm

HEY GUYS,

Just play Hawaiian Music and learn to slant the bar.

A Diminished Tuning *

1. E------ .O14
2. C------ .017
3. A------ .021
4. E------ .030
5. C------ .036
6. A------ .042
7. E------ .056
8. C------ .068

*I MEANT A MINOR.
I saw a gentleman from Japan in Hawaii
a few weeks ago. He seemed to do alot with this
tuning on a 6 string guitar.

ROGER

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 18 May 2009 4:59 pm

That's not A diminished, you'd need an Eb. That's just A minor.

Roman Sonnleitner · Post by **Roman Sonnleitner** » 18 May 2009 5:09 pm

...and no matter whether it's A minor or diminished, Roger's post wasn't helpful in the least - I don't want to play Hawaiian music, and I DO have mastered bar slants (at least forward slants and split slants, reverse ones are still a bit tricky) on C6 lap steel.

But as I said, I'm looking for suggestions on how to use a Duesenberg Multibender with C6 tuning (or if not possible, recommendations for other tunings), to cop some pedal steel sounds & licks for (alt.)country/roots rock playing!

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 18 May 2009 5:20 pm

If I had the ability to set up my configuration, I'd use an E9 tuning (G# E B G# F# D, or something like that) with a G# to A on string 1, B to C# on string 3 and G# to A on string 4. I think this will give you useful pedal type maneuvers. You might have to tune to D, though, because I'm not sure how string 1 would handle that constant raising to A.

With the 3 levers down you have an A6 on strings 1 through 5.

Twayn Williams · Post by **Twayn Williams** » 18 May 2009 5:30 pm

You probably know that the 2 most used E9 pedal steel moves are I-IV (V-I) and I-VI. In other words, the A+B pedal stomp or the A pedal stomp! I don't think you can get those sounds with a standard 6th tuning

You need a minor 3rd with a P4 on top, i.e. G#-B-E. Then you can bend the G# to A for the VI chord and both the G# to A and the B to C# for the IV (V) chord.

You might study some PSG C6 copedants for ideas...

Don Kona Woods · Post by **Don Kona Woods** » 18 May 2009 10:43 pm

Roman,

I would suggest that you email two experts in this area:

Danny James and Phil Bender

They are both members of the Forum and can be contacted.

Aloha,

Don

Nils Fliegner · Post by **Nils Fliegner** » 18 May 2009 11:34 pm

Hi Roman, the E-G-A-C-E-G version of C6 would be most useful if you don't want to learn another tuning, IMHO.

First lever: low G string down to F#. You get a nice dominant D9 tuning (no root: E-F#-A-C-E-G).
Actually it is a D11, but since I have no use for the high G, I think of it as a 9th tuning

Second lever: high E to D. This gives you the root of the D9 AND you can do some moving chordtones pedal steel style:
2 > 3, 5 > 6 and in slant position b7 > 8 and back again, of course. Plus, lowering the strings will put less stress on them.

I hope, my suggestions are helpful and not too confusing (further questions welcome). Best, Nils.

Nils Fliegner · Post by **Nils Fliegner** » 18 May 2009 11:43 pm

Oh, and I forgot:
Strings F#-A-C will give you three out of four notes from a diminished 7 chord and a full augmented chord in slant position (F#-A#-C#).

Not too bad for six strings and two levers

Roman Sonnleitner · Post by **Roman Sonnleitner** » 19 May 2009 4:08 am

Thanks, guys!

Some interesting suggestions here - Nils, looks like I could do a lot with that, but then again it sounds like you'd have to be on top of your musical theory constantly when using that, and it's exactly this what's keeping me from making any progress on my PSG; I'm simply not a "theory buff" - I mean, I had to learn all that stuff when I learned to play the clarinet as a kid, and I could work the theory out on paper, but it really doesn't work for me when playing with the band or live; I'm simply too much of a rock/electric guitar player who prefers to have some handy "boxes" and licks instead of playing based on theory...

Twayn & Mike,
that E9 sounds interesting, I guess I'll string one of my lap steels up in that tuning and play around with it to see where it takes me, before trying it with a bender; I might actually use D9 instead, since a lot of songs I play are in the key of E, and I'm not particularly fond of using open strings a lot of the time (no vibrato, no sliding into chords from below, etc.)
Actually, I'm already contemplating building a double-neck, one with my familiar 8-string C6, and the second with the Multibender and E9 or D9.

But since I won't have time to start working on whatever I want to builkd before summer anyway, I might as well play around with that new tuning without a bender for a while...

Iain · Post by **Iain** » 20 May 2009 8:21 am

Hi

I use an E7th tuning on my steel (e b gsharp E D B, high to low) and 2 Duesenberg benders, like the A&B pedals of a ped steel (b to Csharp and gsharp to a, respectively, basically); the "A pedal" also gets you minors (eg 3rd fret, depress the bender and you have Eminor).
That covers a lot of ground, I think, for what you're after(?)

Incidentally, I HAD 3 benders on my steel (taking the high e to f, a la a knee lever on a pedal steel, for 7ths (that lever on its own, 3 frets up from "open" position) and another major chord (3 frets up from open position, eg that lever and "A pedal" on 3rd fret=Emajor chord) but I took one off, for simplicity. I'm probably going to sell it so if you want it, let me know. Said extra levers go for €44 (Rockinger) new, as far as I know.

Anyway, good luck with it - I think the D/berg benders are a great idea!

G Strout · Post by **G Strout** » 20 May 2009 12:07 pm

I have been looking for a Dusenberg multibender but have had no luck at all finding one on this side of the pond. Does anyone know of any U.S. Dealers that have this item? I have called everyone from the local Dusenberg dealer to Ed Romans' in Las Vegas NV and no one seems to stock the Multibender.

Robert Murphy · Post by **Robert Murphy** » 20 May 2009 12:34 pm

I have a order in for the Bigsby Palm pedal. With two whole tone raises and one half tone lower on the top three strings I should get the most "pedal steel" sound out or an E or A tuning one can get even if I have to drop the top two strings. The half tone lower will let me slide into the tonic from the major 7. The raises will get me from flat third to major third and flat fifth to major fifth or major fifth to sixth.

Post by **Brad Bechtel** » 20 May 2009 2:33 pm

G Strout wrote:I have been looking for a Duesenberg multibender but have had no luck at all finding one on this side of the pond. Does anyone know of any U.S. Dealers that have this item? I have called everyone from the local Duesenberg dealer to Ed Romans' in Las Vegas NV and no one seems to stock the Multibender.

Have you tried contacting Duesenberg in Germany?
Duesenberg Guitars

göldo music gmbh
Krausenstr. 35
30171 Hannover
Germany

phone: +49 (0)5 11 - 85 52 26
fax: +49 (0)5 11 - 85 52 49
e-mail: info@duesenberg.de

John Allison · Post by **John Allison** » 20 May 2009 4:10 pm

Mike Neer wrote:If I had the ability to set up my configuration, I'd use an E9 tuning (G# E B G# F# D, or something like that) with a G# to A on string 1, B to C# on string 3 and G# to A on string 4. I think this will give you useful pedal type maneuvers. You might have to tune to D, though, because I'm not sure how string 1 would handle that constant raising to A.

With the 3 levers down you have an A6 on strings 1 through 5.

What he said! I was going to suggest the same set-up, but I started wondering whether the 3rd pedal might be more useful for some other move. Some iteration of this tuning will give you the best of both worlds (I think I'd get more use out of an E on the bottom).
I use the same strategy with my PSG. Since I'm not very good with the E9 (okay...I won't make any big claims on C6, either...

) I just use the AB for some stock pedal steel sounds and play AB pedals down in A6 to get into more familiar territory. I've cheated my tuning into a nice, full 7-string A6 when I go pedals down.
PS...with the G#-A raises split, you get a maj7 note on top when you use just the middle raises to the A chord... nice chord possibilities there.

Roman Sonnleitner · Post by **Roman Sonnleitner** » 21 May 2009 1:32 am

Hmmm, been doing some thinking...

Seems like a lot of you use an E7 or E9 tuning, and use the bender to take it to an A6 - but since the levers can both raise and lower the strings, I could simply go the other way round: set the lap steel up in A6 and use the Multibender to take it to E9.
Or, since I'm already used to C6, set it up in C6 and use the levers to take it to G9.

As I said, I mostly use the top 6 strings on my 8-string C6 (ACEGACEG lo-to-hi) lap steel (the lower register is usually filled by the rhythm guitar strumming cowboy chords, anway).

So, taking these top 6 strings, and the idea from above, I'd end up with this:

C6----------->G9

(5) G ------------> G (1)
(3) E --- -1 -----> D (5)
(1) C --- -1/2 --> B (3)
(6) A ------------> A (9)
(5) G ------------> G (1)
(3) E -- +1/2 --> F (7)

Does this make sense? Would this be useful, you think?

In C this would also give me the IV chord (F), with only using the bottom lever, and the V (G) chord with only the top two levers depressed.
Or in G I'd have the I chord with all 3 levers depressed, the IV with no levers, and the V with no levers, 2 frets up.

Oh, and along with the open position Am7, I'd also get a Dm with the two outside levers depressed (probably easier to depress all three, which would add a 6th), and an Em with only the middle lever depressed, or an Em7 with the top two levers.

Just got to figure out how my string gauges would work with those levers...

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 21 May 2009 3:37 am

If you want to use the Duesenberg for getting pedal sounds, than you should go with some pedal moves. The E9 moves I suggested would be great for that.

I think it will be difficult to execute a lot different grips if you have to manage the levers the way you've depicted. It doesn't look that logical to me to have the levers set up that far apart. Start off simple and change as you get more comfortable with it.

I think it would be great for embellishing single note picking and for getting a different chord without moving the bar, but don't get crazy with that last aspect.

John Allison · Post by **John Allison** » 21 May 2009 5:04 am

I think it depends on whether you want chords or "licks". If you just want a variety of chord possibilities, then your way might be reasonably efficient. If you want to negotiate specific classic pedal steel sounds, your way might be a little awkward. Also, I'm not sure the simple palm pedal mechanism will allow for lowers, so you'd essentially have to play all the time with the pedals depressed and then release them for the lowers you're talking about.
Since a lap steel is pretty portable and requires no set up, you'll probably do well to consider the bender steel as secondary to your C6 axe. I've often considered building an 8/6 double console with benders on the 6 string neck for just this type of set up. I've settled for an 8-string E9 non-pedal tuning that allows me to use some slants to emulate the AB bend. That along with my C6 8-string covers a lot of ground.

Roman Sonnleitner · Post by **Roman Sonnleitner** » 21 May 2009 5:16 am

Thanks, Mike!

Indeed, the levers so far apart might pose a problem...

I guess my PSG playing hasn't gotten far enough to really be able to judge what can be done in terms of "typical maneuvres" - but wouldn't what you proposed be pretty close to my idea, anyway (ecept that mine is transposed from E9 to G9; and it works the other way round - where you'd press the levers to change, I'd release them to change notes; and "mine" is one string lower)?
Here's what I mean (with "my" version transposed down from the G9 shown above to "your" E9):

"Yours" ................. "mine"

G# > A....................
E ----- E...................E ---- E
B >> C#..................C# > B
G# > A....................A >> G#
F# --- F#.................F# -- F#
D ----- D..................E ---- E (the main difference between "yours" and "mine")
................................C# > D

Wouldn't this give me mostly the same movements (but with the added benefit that I would automatically be in my usual/familiar 6th tuning - which I'd only get with 3 levers pressed if the setup was the other was round)?

BTW, when I'm saying I'm looking for pedal steel-type sounds, I'm not talking about fast solo licks, Lloyd Green-style, but I'm thinking about these slowly morphing chords, like your typical "weepy" PSG on country ballad tear-jerkers, or the typical background PSG playing with alt.country bands like Calexico or Richmond Fontaine - wouldn't the ability to "morph" between I, IV and V chords already get me pretty far?

Roman Sonnleitner · Post by **Roman Sonnleitner** » 21 May 2009 5:28 am

Thanks, John, I was still typing while you posted...

I guess I'm looking more for "chords" than "licks", following your post...

I think I'm already pretty efficient with C6 lap steel, but that athmospheric "morphing chords" sound is something I'm still looking for - yes, moving from slant bar to straight bar can sometimes give you a little of that, and behind-the-bar bends (which I haven't really mastered yet) might also help - but I'm really wondering whether the Multibender couldn't allow me to do much more (BTW, according to the description, it does allow lowering of strings).

I guess I don't want to loose my C6, since that's what I use a lot already, and I'm looking for the best way how to add the "morphing chords" PSG sounds to that - if it can only be done by using the bender with another tuning, like the E9 mentioned by Mike and others), I'll probably build a double neck console - I already have to switch between Tele, baritone, and C6 lap steel, which is enough of a hassle live, don't need another "axe" in addition; but if it can be done by simply modyfying the C6 a bit, that would be even better (that's why I tried to coem up with that tuning above...)

Well, moving the levers between strings can be done on the Multibender, so I guess I should do a bit of experimentation)...

Iain · Post by **Iain** » 21 May 2009 5:31 am

Roman, I'd suggest that you might find it awkward picking etc while constantly holding the levers down - I certainly find that picking around the IV chord in "pedals down" position (both levers engaged) can be tricky, anyway. you're better, I think (just my opinion, of course) to use the levers for occasional changes so that your right-hand picking is less complicated most of the time.

Anyway, that's just what I've found from using the D/berg levers and if you want that weepy Nashville-type sound a few simple raises (such as folk have suggested here) will work well for you, I think.

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 21 May 2009 5:38 am

Roman Sonnleitner wrote: BTW, when I'm saying I'm looking for pedal steel-type sounds, I'm not talking about fast solo licks, Lloyd Green-style, but I'm thinking about these slowly morphing chords, like your typical "weepy" PSG on country ballad tear-jerkers, or the typical background PSG playing with alt.country bands like Calexico or Richmond Fontaine - wouldn't the ability to "morph" between I, IV and V chords already get me pretty far?

Now that you've clarified that, how about something like this:

G
E--->F
C--->D
A--->B
G
E
C

With lever 1 depressed, you get an F triad.
Levers 1 & 2 gives you Dm
Lever 3 gives you CM7--half way gives C7
Lever 2 & 3 strings gives CM9 or G6 or Em
Levers 1, 2, 3 gives G7
Levers 1, 2, 3 render a nice dim triad which you can move and achieve altered dominant sounds, ex. press levers 1,2,3 over a G7, move up to 3rd fret and get 7b9.

You can easily get a nice diatonic scale, which would be cool if you let the notes ring into each other--ex., str 5, string 4, string 4 raised, string 3, string 3 raised, etc.

If you can master only depressing the lever half way, you could get an A7 with 1/2 lever 2, etc.

Many possibilities--probably too much for my brain to handle.

Roman Sonnleitner · Post by **Roman Sonnleitner** » 21 May 2009 5:41 am

Iain wrote:Roman, I'd suggest that you might find it awkward picking etc while constantly holding the levers down

That was actually the reason why I wanted to switch around the raising/lowering - I thought that it would be hard to pick in my constantly used C6 if I had to press three levers to get there, so I thought I'd set the Multibender up so that I'd have the constantly used C6 without levers, and only use those whenever I wanted to go weepy!

Seems like most of you agree that this won't work so well, though!

I guess I'm going to string up one of my 6 strings with E9 now, to see how well I would get along with that one as a "base tuning", compared to my usual C6...

Roman Sonnleitner · Post by **Roman Sonnleitner** » 21 May 2009 5:52 am

Mike Neer wrote:
Now that you've clarified that, how about something like this:

G
E--->F
C--->D
A--->B
G
E
C

With lever 1 depressed, you get an F triad.
Levers 1 & 2 gives you Dm
Lever 3 gives you CM7--half way gives C7
Lever 2 & 3 strings gives CM9 or G6 or Em
Levers 1, 2, 3 gives G7
Levers 1, 2, 3 render a nice dim triad which you can move and achieve altered dominant sounds, ex. press levers 1,2,3 over a G7, move up to 3rd fret and get 7b9.

This one does look VERY useful, indeed - thanks! Kinda like a twisted version of "my" idea from above, with raises instead of lowers, and I'd avoid the problem of having the levers too far apart...

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Duesenberg Multibender with C6 tuning?

Duesenberg Multibender with C6 tuning?

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