The Steel Guitar Forum

I am sure there is something I am missing, but I've tried several tube amplifiers, '70s Twin, Randell, Music Man, and I cannot get a clean sound from them that I can live with. There is a certain roughness or distortion, especially on the trailing edges of the notes that I hate.

Am I not being open minded enough, or does it take a lot of listening and growth to appreciate the tube sound?

I work very hard to get a very clean clear sound with my steel and it just doesn't happen with tubes.

I don't mean to commit heresy here but, even Jimmy Day and Lloyd Greene whose picking I love, I don't really care for their tone.

Someone clue me in and tell me what to listen for in a tube amplifier. I am serious, I would like to love tube amps, but so far I can't!

Bill,

if a good Fender tube amp is healthy, with good tubes, and has had it's old cap's replaced, then as long as it's being run within it's power limits, you should hear a beautifully clean sound, shimmering sweet highs, round and warm bass, deep 3D midrange, but very clean and without any grunge as you describe it.

Also, the right speaker is key as well. A Fender thru the right JBL's is truly hard to beat. I think some people find they just need more power and they wind up overdriving their tube amps. But if you don't push them past their limits, it's tone heaven. Even if you do push them into overdrive, that's a great sound too, but only if that's what you want.

Brad

I think you are walking the fine line between "clean" and "sterile".
You get clean tone from a tube amp and sterile tone from a solid state unit.
Maybe sterile is what you are looking for.

There's no question that people hear things differently. However, tihs is the first time I have ever heard any steeler say they didn't care for Lloyd Green's tone. Have you had your hearing checked out? Just kidding, but Lloyd's tone is what so many of us shoot for. For example, his work on Ricky Skaggs' ' No One Can Hurt You' has got to be the sweetest steel tone ever recorded. ( I assume it came from tubes) I generally find tube amps much more musical and sweet than solid state although a lot of steelers crank the treble on them too much for my tastes. They can be very sibilant if you don't tame the treble.

Bill, a lot of tube amps are set up for guitar players to play on the edge of distortion or past it. It's possible the amps you have tried have been like that, instead of setup to play clean to the top for steel. But even set up clean, these guitar amps can have a certain "texture," referred to as harmonic tube richness, warmth, sparkle, etc. Some of us love that added-something in the tone. But others prefer the crystal clear hi-fi tone of solid state amps, especially the solid response in the low notes. Some of us consider that tone "cold and sterile" compared to the warmth of tube tone. But, many prefer that solid-state clarity, and you may be one of those. Maybe there's no point in fighting your preferences.

Erv,
I have never thought about it, but you may be right. I can hear just a little, real little, fuzziness on the trailing edge of the note on a tube amp. It is much worse if i use a delay, and it drives me crazy. I probably do like my tone sterile.

Bill,
Please don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of Lloyd Greene, and Jimmy Day, (bless his heart), Jimmy is a hero of mine, but their tone is not my favorite. My hearing is good, at least unless you ask my wife; she says it's selective.

Speaking of Loyd and TUBE tone, I think the reference is "Live at Panther Hall" . Here Loyd had a brand new Twin delivered to the stage with 2x12 JBL's, still had the store tags on it. Loyd didn't own the amp but he did mention once that he wished he bought it after the gig.


I think what Brad says makes the most sense, just because it's a tube amp doesn't mean it's a good tube amp. It may very well be a tube amp that needs some work.

I too have never heard anyone state that a Twin, 2x12 or single 15" didn't cut it, I feel that maybe the tone you want to hear is not a "tube amp" tone, which is fine,then the obvious choice is a Peavey, Webb , Evans or even Fender, all great amps but have a totally different sound from not only each other but from the tube amps.

Personally when I play Steel only on the big gigs I use a Nville 400, I like it but it is not favorite sound, but the amp is rugged and will kill everyone in the first two or three rows if need be. My favorite amp to use in the clubs is a stock 2x12 Fender Hot Rod Deville, it just has a much brighter overall tone reminiscent of the early Fender Steel/Amp days. But it can't push near the clean volume that the N400 does.

Just more to add to the equation I suppose.

t

Maybe tube amplifiers are like wine, I may need to develope a taste for them. I hear people praise tube amps constantly, so there must be something good I'm missing, I guess I just need to stretch out a little. Get another one and try to learn to like them.

First, let me say that I am a beginning Steel Guitar player, in fact I am awaiting the arrival of my Steel, however, my experience on this topics comes from over 40 years of working in the audio industry.
For over 50 years, my father operated a small electronic repair and sound installation company, after his health forced him to retire, I took it over and am still running it on a reduced scale, I no longer do electronic repair. One of the things we did was to fix Fender Guitar Amplifiers, I personally worked on probably over 100 units. My dad was a brilliant electronic engineer, he stared working with tubes in the early 30s, built and designed his own amplifiers, mixers, etc. There was nothing about a tube amplifier he did not understand. I was more of the loudspeaker guy, however I did learn a thing or two from him.
One thing he noticed was a that the Fender tube amplifiers were more or less conventional designs, with two exceptions, one was they had a lot of gain on the input sections which could be easily overdriven, and the inverse feedback circuit was “crude’ compared to the rest of the amplifier. This second feature caused the amplifier to become unlinear resulting in a different sound, in other words an increase of certain types of distortion. Knowing that Leo Fender had designed this into the amplifier on purpose, knowing this is what the guitar Players wanted and that was part of what is the “Electric Guitar Sound” we left that part of them alone. Fender amps, in comparison the regular amplifiers, were hard on output and rectifier tubes, they ran them “hot”, got more power out of them and for a shorter period of time. The tubes that came in the amps were first grade tubes, those available from electronic supply houses, were grade three. Guitar players just had to replace the tubes more often, and local replacement tubes didn’t work as well, either in output, sound quality or longevity. Before the advent of the ex Soviet block tubes, the Western made ones got pretty bad, and later CBS Fenders modified the feedback circuit to be more conventional and easier on tubes. Guitar players complained and we modified some to be more like the older Fenders, upon their owner’s request. We also noticed that other makers of tube guitar amplifiers did similar or other non conventional things to make their amps sound “right”.
A good tube amp using two 6L6 type of output tubes is good for about 35 watts of clean power in a continuous state. Tubes, however, can produce output peaks of several times their continuous rating, guitar notes are mostly peaks, with the exception of sustain. Therefore the tube amp is perfect for a guitar player. Further, tube distortion harmonics are more pleasing to a listener than those from solid state amplifiers, which most find objectionable. A good tube amplifier sounds wonderful, in a high fidelity sense, and are sought out by audio purists. There is a whole industry of small sized amp makers, some of these things cost thousands, for 5 watts of power.
For over 50 years, we were also an ALTEC Lansing Sound contractor. At the time ALTEC was the number one producer of professional sound equipment, with the largest dealer network, and most training of any sound company. At one of their training seminars, in the early 1970s, we had dinner with their Chief Electronic engineer, Paul Spranger, who had formerly held the same position at Fender, think he left after Leo sold out. He confirmed all out technical views of the Fender amps, saying that Leo had worked long and hard getting them to sound the way the guitarists wanted, and the odd inverse feedback circuit. He also said they had trouble with some of the leading Steel Guitar Players, didn’t mention who, that wanted a cleaner sound, and that they modified some of their amps to more conventional feedback circuitry, which made them happy.
Some Steel Players are happy with normal guitar amps, some are not. We had over 20 years experience with a Steel player named Hal Clampit, who formerly played with Bob and Johnny Lee Wills. Hal’s favorite steel setup, all tubes, used an odd preamp, something like an old Newcomb, a Macintosh 75 power amp and a JBL D130 in a home made box. Ancillary pieces were a Echolet tape loop multi delay, a Bigsby pedal, and a Leslie speaker which had a motor driven, rotating Styrofoam scoop on the front of it. Every now and then Hall would replace the ensemble with a regular guitar amp, within a week he was back to his old lashup. One time when it was down, we loaned him an ALTEC 342B 4 input 35 watt tube amp. He thought it sounded great, just didn’t have quite enough power for larger places. Another time we loaned him and ALTEC 1569A 80 watt tube power amp, he liked it even better, more power. For his regular guitar, he used a Fender Twin Reverb.
What to do? First realize that you are not hearing things wrong, everyone is different. If you would like a “cleaner” sounding amp, borrow a good tube vintage PA amp, try it. Some I can think of off the top of my head are: ALTEC 342B-35 watts, ALTEC 1567A mixer with 1569A-80 watts, 1657w/1570B-175 watts-big and heavy, some of the better DuKanes, better Bogen amps-M60-M120- the purple loaf of bread type amps, do not use the Bogen challengers or other cheap ones. HiFi power amps would work too, the Macintoshes, Audio Research from the 70s, Dynaco’s, bigger Heathkits, etc. However you will still need a tube microphone preamp. In the preamp, make sure that they don’t have LowZ mic transformers in them, if they do remove them and jumper the sockets for HiZ.. Unfortunately many of these amplifiers are now prized by the tube audio types, they have gotten expensive. Use an amp with at least two 6L6 or bigger size output tubes, for any commercial playing, smaller ones may work at home. Remember you will have to use outboard signal processing devices, reverbs etc, as these amps do not have any.
I am going to use an old ALTEC 342B for myself, I have several, it is big enough to use in smaller venues without miking it, but I’d better learn how the play first.
Jim

Very cool stuff Jim.

Thanks for sharing.

Brad

I am always amazed by the knowledge found here on the forum. Thanks for the info.

The information is appreciated Jim. Thank you.

Bill - where are you trying these amps?

If you are using your guitar player's amp, it's undoubtedly set up wrong for you (if he's had it set up).

If you are trying fresh-from-the-factory amps, they will NEVER sound right at first. The production amps you name are all biased cold from the factory to save tube life...OK for a steel player as you get more headroom, but the tone can suffer and there's a happy medium. some amps are rebiased in better stores...but they are set up for 6-string players, who (unless you're like me) are looking for a totally different sound than a steel player; at least a TYPICAL steel player.

So - bias settings can be an issue

Preamp tubes - same thing. Stock ones are cheap. They are also fairly high in gain, NOT what you want for clean steel.

Your power tubes may be mismatched; the wrong tubes for you; or the driver tube may be wrong for you.

The speakers on a NEW amp need at least 20-40 hours of medium-volume p[laying to break in - a new amp might sound "OK, but not great...speakers HAVE to break in. (BTW, so-called "reissue" Jensens NEVER break in unless you do some work on them).

And if you are looking at used amps, unless you are slightly knowledgeable you can't tell what's been serviced and what hasn't and what CAN be done to improve it.

Tube amps are a lot like hot rods. They take constant work and fiddling. They are most definitely not "plug 'n play".

However - based on one comment you made...that you don't like Green's or Day's tone...tells me you want the squeaky-clean, slightly more clinical tones of solid-state. You're wasting your time even bothering with looking at tube amps if you don't like the tones considered some of the best steel tones ever.

I come from a country-rock and rock background....listen to the Byrds' "You Ain't Goin' Nowhere. Lloyd Greens steel has a distinctive tone, using a Fender Deluxe with a JBL, cranked to the edge of breakup.

IF you don't like THAT - you are NOT a tube guy. Don't be ashamed...those of us who LIKE tubes really like people who dislike tube amps.

It helps keep the demand down. And the prices

Hehehe....

Jim. S,

Your evaluation of the condition of a given tube amplifier and it's components is correct.

However, I will have to respectively disagree with you overall comment of the sound of tube amplifiers.

Tube amplifiers run from those which are superbly built and sounding to abject pieces of low fidelity trash. The non guitar amplifiers I was speaking of are all quite High Fidelity and are very well built. In fact, for my personal taste, I would rather listen to a good tube amplifier than a good solid state one, I like the liveness, speed, and ambiance of the tube amp over the solid state models, although many of them also sound quite nice.

Guitar amplifiers are just that, they are intended to be used with guitars, they are not high fidelity, they are tailored to give that “electric” guitar sound. Some Steel and Jazz guitar players would rather have a “cleaner” sound not necessarily a more sterile sound, Yesterday I spoke to my audio guru friend and mentioned the inverse feedback circuit of the Fender, he confirmed my previous comments. He said Fender circuitry does not use near as much inverse feedback as a High Fi amp and in fact what is there effectively suppresses the 2nd an 4th harmonics, the pleasant ones, and allowed the 3rd and 5th harmonics to pass, giving the output an “edgy” tone.
Using the Fenders as an example, their output transformer is not big enough to cleanly pass lower notes, they use ones- “good enough” for their use, bigger ones cost and weigh more, a significant factor in production and use of the units. I used the Altec’s as a standard of a good professional tube amp. The output transformer of a 35 watt 342B is over twice the size of a two tube Fender Super Reverb, which they rated to 70? Watts. The 342 transformer is only good to 40Hz clean at full power. The 1568A 40 watt tube power amp output transformer, also good to 40Hz clean at full power, is about 20% bigger than a 342’s, the 128B, a studio version of the 1568A which is good to 20Hz clean at full power, has an output transformer the size of four bricks. Now, I will say the Altec’s had excellent transformers, they had their own transformer plant, - Peerless Transformer, which specifically made them for their amps, something others could not do. While the proper sized output transformer is only one component of good design, it is indicative of the quality of the unit. These are the kind of tube amps I am talking about, ones that sound really good, no they don’t sound sterile. They maintain the tube liveness without the “edge” regular guitar amps have.

I do not think one can cover the sound of all tube amplifiers with such a “broad brush”. I believe a good tube amp with the right speaker is perfect for a Steel Guitar, it just my be more involved than buying an amplifier off the shelf.

Jim

Jim Sliff,
For a fact I have never tried to alter any of the tube amps I've used, with the exception of installing different speakers. I bought them, and traded or sold them. I periodically have tried my guitar picking friends tube amps

I do like squeaky clean pedal steel. Tube amps are probably not in my taste range. Guess it doesn't hurt to keep looking and trying. Could be they're like red wine, you just have to develop a taste for them. Possibly I'm still maturing.

Jim - I think you must have misinterpreted what I said. Please read the post again. We are on exactly the same page! As far as sound, I was commenting on the usual ***6 string*** setup, where lower headroom is usually the target and a more saturated, slightly-distorted but smooth sound is desired. Works great for 6-string, less so for clean steel. It was NOT a commentary on tube amps in general! I've had Macintosh monoblocks that could crack concrete walls and be perfectly clean - but they'd make crappy 6-string guitar amps unless you play jazz.

For most steel players, an out of the box tube guitar amp will not be set up well for steel. - that's where I was commenting regarding "plug and play"; for 6-string they even need some work when brand new, as when it comes to some internal amp settings (and speakers) one size does not fit all.

I was not posting information for audio engineers, or for guys who would adapt audiophile equipment for guitar use. It was a post for a layman, and VERY basic. IF you WANT all the complicated technical stuff I can point to sources, but there is no point in posting it for a player and non-tech.

My entire point was that tube GUITAR amps have certain qualities that can be adjusted...and certain ones that can't. High-end audio equipment is irrelevant to the discussion.

As Jim S. says, I think one can set up a good tube guitar amp for high-fidelity perfectly well. Most amps aren't set up that way because most 6-string guitar players don't want high-fidelity. A good tech should be able to hook you up if you have a high-quality, high-power tube amp like a Fender Twin Reverb, Showman/Dual-Showman/Dual-Showman-Reverb or one of the high-power Music Man amps you mentioned. Bias, tube selection (good, but expensive, NOS 6L6 tubes are essential), strong power supply filter capacitors, and high-fidelity speaker selection are important. One change not mentioned is to use a somewhat lower-gain preamp tube (like a 5751 or 12Y7 instead of the stock 12AX7/7025) in the front-end preamp position. Some pedal steel pickups just saturate that front end - in my experience anyway. Both my Deluxe Reverb and Dual Showman Reverb are set up this way. Sometimes just plugging into the #2 input can deal with this same issue.

Someone clue me in and tell me what to listen for in a tube amplifier. I am serious, I would like to love tube amps, but so far I can't!

When you think about the amount of weight, expense, and maintenance that a high-fidelity tube amp wants, if you prefer the sound of a clean solid-state amp, why worry about tubes? I love tube amps, but a lot of times, I use a Peavey pedal steel amp or use a very clean solid-state bass amp. They produce the sound of modern pedal steel without a lot of muss and fuss, if that's what you want.

My opinions, of course.

Bill,
I have 2 fender amps that I think are the best of both worlds. The first one is a 1973 Fender Silverface twin, 100 watts with 2 K-120 JBL's. I recently re-tubed it and changed out all the electrolytic caps. It is clean as a whistle and very hard to break up, even cranked. I use it for my steel. The second one is a vintage 66 Super Reverb, IMHO this is the best "Guitar amp" ever made. Only 40 watts that's breaks up very nicely when cranked. If you want to hear what that sounds like listen to Derek Trucks. He uses the same amp with no effects and gets tremendous tone and sustain with a Gibson SG. When I play the steel through the Super I don't particularly care for it because of the harmonic distortion and the 10" speakers. However the Twin sounds beautiful for steel. I generally use the twin for double duty since I can use an effect pedal and come close to the Supers tone but I can't get a clean steel sound from the Super Reverb. I've played guitar for 40 years and and have played many amps and always come back to Fender tube amps for tone. If I had a roadie I would use both amps. IMO they are the best.

Bernie,
Thanks for the information on the Twin and Super. I am going to try and pick up an old Twin Reverb and try the bias tweak deal and see how it turns out.

Bill,
If you get an old twin it should be an early 70's Silverface twin with JBL speakers. From what I have read about them they did some circuitry changes when CBS took over Fender that changed to Silverface to make the amps sound cleaner. That's one of the reasons gutitar players like the Blackface Fenders better. A lot of people will "Blackface" their silverface amp in an effort to get that tone and harmonic distortion guitar players (myself included)love. I'm sure that Jim Dickinson with all his experience knows more about it than I do. Also the ones with the Master volume, such as mine, do not have a bias adjustment pot. They only have a hum reducing pot. However, it is crucial that you have Heavy duty High power speakers like JBL's. Fender sold some of them stock from the factory with K-120 JBL's. That's the kind I have. They sound beautiful. It is the early 70's Silverface Twins that the steel players crave.

Bill Duncan wrote: There is a certain roughness or distortion, especially on the trailing edges of the notes that I hate.

What kind of steel guitar do you play, and what pickups are in it, and what volume pedal do you use, out of curiosity??

Bill, are you one who uses effects pedals or do you go straight from guitar to v.pedal to the amp? Sometimes, something as simple as a low battery or weak chord, or a walwart can add low level distortion. A tuner with out a true bypass will sometimes introduce low level distortion. You have tried several good tube amps, yet no cigar. Humn .

But then again, if you keep the same setup from solid state amps to the tube amps, it MAYBE a matter of getting a tube amp specifically voiced for steel. Or you simply prefer ss amps?

I only use reverb with pedal steel. I use a Vegas 400, (Peavey Mod kit) with 2 D123 JBL's and a MSA with E66's. The tone is very clean, clear and smooth. The tone is good.

For guitar, a Gretsch, I used a Delta Blues with a JBL, or a Music Man 112 with a JBL. Neither sounds good with pedal steel.

Bernie- There is a popular misconception that JBL's are "high powered speakers". A FEW are, but the typical ones in Fender Twins - D120F's - are actually good for 50-watts or so (probably less if never reconed). They were only 60-watt speakers to start with (the designer has posted this on other forums many times). I've found that aged JBL's can be really brittle sounding, especially at lower volume levels.

In fact the original D120 was a 25-watt speaker.

The best clean speaker for Twins I've found (among originals) is the CTS ceramic magnet 12 Fender used. Smooth, warm, and holds up at high volume, allowing you to tweak the amp for steel or guitar. As far as replacements go, for really clean tones I like the Weber California; for a little more breakup the Chicago is nice. Those are among their least expensive speakers as well. Also, the paper dustcap (instead of aluminum) kills the icepick-highs that can kick in, especially with a cranked-up Twin.

Jim S,

I do understand that's its not really easy to get an of-the-shelf really clean tube amp in the musical instrument world. To get one, one is going to have to go out into the vintage professional sound world. The Altec's I used as examples were not sold in the HiFi world, they were Theatrical and PA amps, they just happened to be HiFi, they were very conservatively built, meant to have up to 10 year tube life, in fairly heavy use applications. These things were meant to be installed, and forgotten, they just worked. Most HiFI amps had a tube life more more like the Fenders, and needed to be serviced more often. That said, I think if one found a nicely renovated Altec 342, or even a Bogen M60 or 120, one could just plug them into a speaker box and play. From what I see on these forums, there are many who are seeking "a bit more", here's another venue to persue, no, probably not for someone who has to pack your emsemble in and out of the club every few days.
While the 12Ax7 tube might have a bit more gain than some want in a Fender, they work just fine in other preamps that were designed to take advantage of their attributes.
Bernie, you are right about the Silverface Fenders, they were not as hotly driven as the earlier ones. I did indeed, modify a few to be more like the old ones, it was easy.

Jim S,again.

True, the older JBLs are lower power speakers, it was just another use for their HiFi speakers. The first of the Higher power ones were the Altec 12" 417 and 15" 418. The old JBLs, and most other speakers of the time, were built with bostik "shoe" glue, paper voice coil formers, and voice coils held together with solvent based glues. There is no reason that they can't be reconed with higher power stuff, as the later ones are. Some people claim they can hear a difference, I can't. You are right, some of the mass-produced speakers like the CTS' did use better glues sooner than the quality speaker makers. Now everyone does, except those who still make vintage HiFi speakers, even with them, I cannot hear the difference with the higher power parts. I too like the paper dust caps.
I always liked the Altec 418 as a Steel Speaker,(remember I am an old Altec guy) the 12" 417 was great for regular guitar, maybe a bit hot for steel, although that is what I am going to use, I have two.
Do any of you still use any?

It would be cool if a bunch of us could get together with a selection of equipment and listen to it, maybe someday. Jim

Good grief, if I have to go through all this tube tweaking, bias setting, capacitor capin ritual, when do I get to pick? It just ain't worth it!

So I swapped for a couple D123's in my Vegas 400 and I'm pickin in thirty minutes, and it sounds great. I think I'll stay with plug and play.