The Steel Guitar Forum

what are some common ways of playing a diminished chord on an E9 steel with 3 pedals and 4 knees??

in the key of " G " it would be 2F, 5F, 8F, 11F & 14F

Karen, thanks for bringing this up...it leads me to another question regarding diminished chords.
Major chords appear every 12 frets, minors likewise.

Can someone explain the logic behind the dim chords appearing every 3 frets?

A diminished chord is just a stack of minor 3rds. So take the stack up a minor 3rd, and it's the same diminished chord one inversion higher.

If you think about the composition of a diminished chord root flat 3rd and flat 5th. If you know where your root is every time in every position of a major chord and can raise the root a 1/2 tone that would create a diminished chord by changing the relationship of the notes in the major chord. That's the easiest way to see it I think.
Good Luck and have fun.

Also, while holding the F lever, lower the 2nd string to extend the diminished chord up there.

Dean Parks totally nailed it. That's by far the best analogy of a diminished chord I've ever seen, and it was explained fully in only a few words. Only true masters have a such a gift.

Thanks Dean for sharing your exceptional musical insight and perception. Next time I see you.....you can bet I'll have some questions for you.

Karen Sarkisian wrote:what are some common ways of playing a diminished chord on an E9 steel with 3 pedals and 4 knees??

Karen,
You and I must be on the same track. I was preparing to post a similar thread.

Pedal/Lever positions in order to play the triads of the C major scale, keeping the bar at the 8th fret:
I = C = No Pedals or Levers
ii = Dm = Pedals B & C
iii = Em = E Lever
IV = F = Pedals A & B
V/V7 = G/G7 = E Lever/E Lever & Pedal B
V7aug = Slanted Bar + ??? or ???
vi = Am = Pedal A
vii = Bdim = B Pedal & E Lever (1/2 Pedal A for bb7)

Suggestions and comments please?

Thanks,
Mike

I think also the 3,5 and b7 of a 7th chord form a sort of diminished chord.
The intervals are mi 3 between all three notes.
Like the E, G and Bb notes of a C7 chord...
Somebody tell me if I'm out to lunch here...

Paul-

That is correct. Add in the remaining minor 3rd (of a dim 7 chord), put it over the roots you've mentioned, and it's a 7b9 chord.

If you step back and listen to just about any diminished chord, in its context within a song, you'll find it's a disguised 7th chord. That greatly simplifies playing over, or thru, such a chord... treat it as it's "true" 7th chord, and you've conquered it. Include the b9 if you want, but you don't have to.

In fact, play its "true" root, even though no other instruments are playing it.

Dean Parks wrote:A diminished chord is just a stack of minor 3rds. So take the stack up a minor 3rd, and it's the same diminished chord one inversion higher.

Also, a corollary to the diminished chord is the augmented triad, which is a "stack of major 3rds". Move the stack up a full third for successively higher inversions of the augmented chord.

" treat it as it's "true" 7th chord, and you've conquered it. "
Like, if you`re playing the familiar C, C#dim, dm7, G7 progression you`re also playing the equally familiar C, A7(c# in bass), dm7, G7 sequence. To give an example....

The beauty of diminuished, as well as augmented chords lies in their symmetry.

Being composed of the same intervals (min thirds on dim. or maj thirds on aug.) stacked upon each other, they let you play nice series of inversions as chord runs.

A dim chord fits 4 times into a octave (advance 3 frets each time: 2F, 5F, 8F, 11F....) and then repeats itself if you proceed, a maj chord fits in 3 times (advance 4 frets each time).

...and Reece is right: Dean´s explanation puts the whole truth into ONE simple phrase!

B pedal, E's lowered and A 1/2 pedaled (or split if you lower the 5th string) gives you a diminished 7th on strings 1 through 8.

Dean Parks wrote:Paul-

That is correct. Add in the remaining minor 3rd (of a dim 7 chord), put it over the roots you've mentioned, and it's a 7b9 chord.

If you step back and listen to just about any diminished chord, in its context within a song, you'll find it's a disguised 7th chord. That greatly simplifies playing over, or thru, such a chord... treat it as it's "true" 7th chord, and you've conquered it. Include the b9 if you want, but you don't have to.

In fact, play its "true" root, even though no other instruments are playing it.

I've always been confused on when/where to use diminished chords in passing. I like this explanation, but still don't know where to use a diminished. For example if you're in G and you're at fret 10 with A and B pedals down, you could slide down to fret 8 with the B pedal (A optional) and E lever as a 7th chord that resolves nicely to the #4 chord, C. In that example what would be an equivalent diminished you could play there and where would you find it on the neck?

Also, while I'm thinking of it, the combination of the B pedal and E lever makes a 7th, so what chord are you playing when you use that combination with the A pedal also? Thanks.

Clint

if you are looking for a say a Cdim think third fret pedals down is your C now move up one fret release pedals apply F level that is a Cdim now there is only 4 dim chords total and thats it, it all depends where you start it at and it repeats itself every 3 frets forward or backwards I just use the format above to help me figure out where I am at. you will find dim chords going from a 1 to a 4 or 5 back to 1. kind of like your 7th chords isnt it but much more full sound. now to get a true dim chord just my 2 cents here is all. you have to add the 9th string D in or lower your 2nd string 1/2 lower. without the 9th or 2nd string you might want to call it a 7th chord but of course you would have to be over the chord you want as a 7th and it does not repeat itself so G at the 3rd fret open moved to 6th fret with F level is a G7th.

Clint Stevenson wrote:I've always been confused on when/where to use diminished chords in passing.

Wherever you use a 7th chord to lead to the next chord, you can substitute the diminished that contains the same notes (except for the root tone).

For example, you're in G going to a C chord. You play G major at the 6th fret, A+F position. Release the A pedal and you have the G7th chord without the G root note. Those same notes are in the diminished chord that repeats every 3 frets. So now you can slide it up or down 3 frets (F lever diminished chord) and then resolve it to the C chord wherever you end up.

There are other uses for the diminished chord, but this is one of the most common.

well said bob,

The G7th substitution is technically a G7b9 chord if the bass player stays on G. If you're making a chord chart for a song where you're playing a lot of diminished chords, they might sound better as 7b9 chords where the bass player is playing the root that you are ignoring.

For example, we often play C C#dim Dm G which is a very common swing phrase. It sounds okay but it usually sounds better if the bass and piano see it as C A7b9 Dm G which is a circle of fifths pattern.

Also, I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but if you take a diminished 7th chord, and lower any note a 1/2 step, the resulting chord is a dominant 7th with that note as the root. For example: G7th = G-Bb-Db-E (Fbb).. Lower the Bb to A, and you get A7. You can also use a diminished chord in a situation that requires an "altered dominant" by considering the above formula..

Keep talkin' you guys...some of it is sinking in. What a great thing you mentioned, b0b, about the G to C going out from the 6th fret

Karen, in answer to your question, the easiest way to play a diminished chord is to move the bar back one fret from the major chord, engage the "F" lever (the one which raises the E strings), and play strings 3,4 and 5, or 4, 5 and 6. For example, to find G diminished, place your bar on the 3rd fret, no pedals or knee levers, for a G major chord. Slide back one fret and engage the f lever for a G diminished chord.
Hope this helps...
Larry J.

Larry,
To check my understanding, this will give us a Gdim which, in the key of G, can be used as a "chromatic passing chord" or a substitution for a dom7(b9). If we go down another fret, to the first fret with just the F lever, that will give us an F#dim which is the vii chord in the key of G. This F#dim can also be found at the third fret using the B Pedal, E Lever (and 1/2 A pedal for the bb7).

True or false? (It's late...help a brother out!)
Thanks,
Mike

Here is the way I have always thought of it, every note in the chord names another chord and repeats itself every 3 frets,
also a aug. chord is the same and repeats itself every 4 frets.

ernie

That rings a bell Ernie, I remember Jeff Newman teaching us the 3-fret and 4- fret rule for dim and aug. It's simply amazing how much of this sticks, even after being away from Jeff's teaching for 30 years.

I guess that's the mark of a great teacher.