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Topic: Mystery Of the Push Pull Guitar |
Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 22 Mar 2009 10:13 am |
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Folks speak the praises of the push pull guitar, and remark as to the wonderful sounds it makes; sounds unlike any other.
OK. What is it? What is there about the push pull guitar, that creates the unequaled tone? What is in the guitar that sets it's sound apart, and above all others?
I have looked them over, and apart from a fairly congested underside, have not seen anything that would cause me to expect it to sound any better than any other guitar.
I really would like to know. I've heard about the push pull for years, yet no one has been able to point me to exactly where the superior sound comes from.
Is it the pickup? The body? Some of the bodies are Formica covered, and some are plain wood. Yet, I do not recall hearing anyone point to any difference caused by the Formica/wood thing.
_________________
You can observe a lot just by looking |
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Richard Damron
From:
Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)
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Posted 22 Mar 2009 10:22 am
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| No one knows. That's gospel. Don't listen to fairy tales. |
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Rick Collins
From:
Claremont , CA USA
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Posted 22 Mar 2009 10:59 am
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Bill, if you took the sound post from the inside of a violin, would you not agree that it would sound differently from one with a sound post in place __ even though you are playing both violins with like pickups through the same amp?
Listener's perceptions vary widely __ I know.
I hear what has come to be called "that sound" of the PP guitar in certain areas of it's mid-range output. Its highs and lows, I cannot differentiate.
This is just what I hear.
Your amount of earwax accumulation may vary.  |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 22 Mar 2009 11:02 am
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| search the archives for the 100 times this has been discussed! |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 22 Mar 2009 11:37 am
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Bill,
The push pull system of changing the notes old Emmons guitars use is different than the more common all pull currently used by most builders. An analogy with electric guitar would be a guitar with a fixed bridge with strings through the body will sound different than a guitar with a Floyd Rose locking tremolo bridge. The body and finish could be exactly the same but they will have a different sound.
Study this site and compare how your guitar works to an Emmons if you are interested in learning about the differences between changer systems:
http://www.melmusic.com/laceyj/guide.html
_________________
Bob |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064
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Posted 22 Mar 2009 3:14 pm
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It's a combination of all the materials and mechanics used in creating the instrument, as well as the techniques used in assembling the instrument, and dependent on who did the assembly.
And I'm not joking. All of those factors matter. Which is why two Emmons Originals, made in the same week, could possibly sound different from each other.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 22 Mar 2009 4:00 pm
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| Bobbe Seymour has said there are several secrets to the Emmons p/p sound, I believe he said seven. But he has never said what they are. |
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Peter Freiberger
From:
California, USA
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Posted 22 Mar 2009 4:18 pm
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| I agree with Herb. Jay Dee once said of P/P's, "They all sound different and they all sound great." |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 22 Mar 2009 5:04 pm
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Most of the above I agree with.
I will add, that overall there IS a distinct sound that an Emmons' P/P has that NO other guitar exhibits. Just like there is a distinct sound that a prewar bakelite Rickenbacher has that NO other guitar has.
What is it, and how do you describe it? I cannot say, except maybe the following will help:
Back in the 60's a Baptist preacher in Ft Lauderdale, Florida was preaching on pornography and he made the following statement,
"The UNITED STATES Supreme Court can NOT define it, BUT just about every body knows what it is!"
Of all the statements I have EVER heard, the following is the best I have ever heard and I agree with concerning the Emmons' P/P.
"It cuts through like no other PSG, especially during a recording". I agree totally.
But I also maintain it has the stupidist mechanics there is. And thus why I can't stand the "slop" in raises, when that same string is also lowered. In addition, double and triple lowers can be a nightmare to install, adjust and work on.
So I opt' for an All/Pull any day overall, even admitting the above.
Carl
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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Brandon Ordoyne
From:
Needville,Texas USA
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Posted 23 Mar 2009 4:46 am
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I have a 1974 Emmons Push/Pull...I do no know the "secrets", it just sounds excellent! I have no reasons to ever part with it! I did recently purchase a Rittenberry, and it is the only all pull, that I can say compares to the tone of my Push/Pull. I bought it due to the fact that, I don't want to take my Push/Pull out to bars anymore, and risk some drunk falling over it or any other thing that may happen out there.
Brandon
_________________
'74 Emmons D10 P/P 8x5,'15 Rittenberry D10 8x5, Peavey Nashville 112, 400 & 1000, Fender Twin Reverb Tone Master, Hilton, Goodrich L120, Boss DD-3 and RV-3 |
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Bobbe Seymour
From:
Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 23 Mar 2009 9:17 pm
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Dave Doggett my buddy, I have told why and what these "secrets" are several times. It's just that no one seems to understand what I'm saying (or possibly care).
I have told a couple of manufacturers these "secrets" face to face, they had a look on their faces like a deer in the headlights! Nothing soaked in, their guitars today sound just as badly as ever. I don't know what else to do to get the answer across.
Most all manufacturers don't really care about tone, just selling guitars I'm afraid,
to most folks they may be correct. Not me personally. Yes, It's very hard to beat the tonal response/timbre of the Emmons and Promatt P-P steel guitars.
It seems that many folks still can't hear the quality in these great guitars, but that's OK, it sets them free to go in other directions. We all need to have what we personally love.
Bobbe |
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Pat Comeau
From:
New Brunswick, Canada
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 23 Mar 2009 10:07 pm
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I put three videos up on Youtube a while back, playing the same song on three different steels (Emmons push-pull, Denley pull-release, ZB all-pull)
Virtually no difference in any of them
Emmons
Denley
ZB |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 23 Mar 2009 11:34 pm
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Bobbe, I like your explanation of the push pull tone in SGW Magazine a few years ago:
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| There were seven things that made that guitar great. I'll tell you a couple. The changer unit is one. Its design is absolutely unique. All the vibrations from the strings go into the body of the guitar. In a pull guitar, the vibrations go into the end castings, then into the legs and down to the floor. Do you want a good sounding guitar or a good sounding floor? The way things were bolted together and path of vibrations were well connected. The overtones backfeed the strings. That's where you get that growl. The LeGrandes have similar technology. The push-pulls were criticized. People asked if they were so good why aren't they still built like that? One word. Money. They are triple the cost to produce verses an all-pull guitar. |
I know exactly what you're talking about... the vibrations through the body, and the overtones backfeeding the strings. There is a certain growling tone in a p/p... but it's also a clean bright tone that really cuts. There's nothing like it. I've been playing p/p Emmons for 39 years. I've tried every major brand of pedal steel over the years, but their tone is different. Other guitars have a nice full sound, but they don't cut like an Emmons push pull. And the pedal response is different. The all-pull Emmons guitars do not have "that sound". They sound like all the other guitars. It's hard to pinpoint what makes the push/pull sound, but I think it's the unique construction of the guitar, the way the parts are connected and make contact with the body. It also the single coil pickup. P/P is in a class all it's own, in my opinion.
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel
Last edited by Doug Beaumier on 24 Mar 2009 8:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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john widgren
From:
Wilton CT
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Posted 24 Mar 2009 5:02 am
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| Push pulls are nice... |
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Tom Quinn
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Posted 24 Mar 2009 5:17 am
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Hey John-san, do you know what your comic book cover says? :- )
I do! -L- |
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john widgren
From:
Wilton CT
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Posted 24 Mar 2009 5:49 am
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Banishes dirt to the land of wind and ghosts?
Please inform...inquiring minds want to know |
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john widgren
From:
Wilton CT
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Posted 24 Mar 2009 5:51 am
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| comes with hot sauce?? |
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john widgren
From:
Wilton CT
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Posted 24 Mar 2009 5:53 am
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| unexplained bacon? |
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Ulric Utsi-Åhlin
From:
Sweden
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Posted 24 Mar 2009 6:37 am
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Way back in the late 70´s I was studying some blue-
prints & technical drawings of PSG-changers,and when
I glanced at the P/P diagram I noted the solid
fingers-to-body contact,as opposed to the balancing
act of the typical all-pull...magic & metaphysics
aside,this has to be the major contributing factor...
otherwise,I´m lost,again...McUtsi
Last edited by Ulric Utsi-Åhlin on 24 Mar 2009 9:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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steve takacs
From:
beijing, china via pittsburgh (deceased)
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Posted 24 Mar 2009 6:47 am EMMONS PUSH -PULL VS. ZB & KLINE
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| Push-Pull afficianados , how do these guitars compare with ZBs and Kline guitars in terms of sound? steve t |
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Bobbe Seymour
From:
Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 24 Mar 2009 7:12 am
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Doug B. ,,,,,, This is a good simple answer I put in the "Steel Guitar World" magizine several years ago. There is a little more to it but this is the basic principle. (backfeeding)
When it comes to slack in the raises, this is only nesessary if you lower a string. All pull guitars need slack in both the raise AND lowers to keep the string from over tuning. The P-P needs NO slack in the lowers, this is a direct movement that is not affected by the raise, unlike the All-Pull system. The tiny amount of slack that is needed if you raise and lower the same string on a P-P should not hinder anyone from playing this instrument as perfectly as any other type of changing system.
As far as I am concerned, it's not just the tone of the guitar that I love but I love the feel and working design that is so secure and solid. I'd love this great guitar even if it didn't sound so incredible. The tone is the icing on the cake.
I could name many very well known players that agree on these points.
This mechanisum is a great work of art to anyone that has the mechanical ability to change a flat tire.  
Bobbe
Last edited by Bobbe Seymour on 24 Mar 2009 7:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 24 Mar 2009 7:14 am
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It was touched on above.
As far as I'm concerned, the one thing that contributes the most to the p/p sound is the fact that the changer finger makes solid contact to the guitar's body via the tuning screw.
When the guitar is set up properly, you can hear the click when it makes contact.
I'm sure there are other things that help create the unique sound attributed to the p/p but they are not the primary factors. |
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Bobbe Seymour
From:
Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 24 Mar 2009 7:32 am
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| Great Erv, this is how what I'm saying works. How could "back feeding occur without this lower finger touching the body? This could occur but not as directly or easily. BUT, as has been proven by Zum and Carter, it takes more than just this to make "That Sound!" Just touching the body with a dummy finger doesn't do it. It takes a great resonant body to create this source as a birthing place for the tone to be transfered back to the string to cause the overtones (Timbre) and the pickup to convert it to electrical pulses which the amp converts back to audible pulses in the atmosphere which is the sound we hear. |
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Bobbe Seymour
From:
Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 24 Mar 2009 7:37 am
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Bill Duncan, If you really care to know, Just stop by to see me sometime and I'll show you in person,
Bobbe Seymour,
(The Statesville NC flash,) |
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