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Topic: Rest Stroke Blocking |
Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Posted 8 Mar 2009 1:34 pm |
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I used to play classical guitar. They use a method called a rest stroke. When you pick a note, say on string one, your finger comes to, "rest," on string 2. I've never seen it discussed here. But it seems like it would be an effective blocking method while the steel is moving away from you.
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Amor vincit omnia |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 8 Mar 2009 4:54 pm
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| I think a lot of us already use a technique that includes what you describe. I call it "Advance Pick Blocking" as used by Paul Franklin. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 8 Mar 2009 6:09 pm Re: Rest Stroke Blocking
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| Edward Meisse wrote: |
| ...When you pick a note, say on string one, your finger comes to, "rest," on string 2. I've never seen it discussed here. But it seems like it would be an effective blocking method while the steel is moving away from you. |
I don't think you hear about this because playing classical guitar isn't like playing pedal steel, and it just isn't done. Picking techniques are different on classical guitar due to the acoustic nature of the instrument.
What, exactly, would you be blocking? On a guitar, because you're using different fingers on the same strings quite often, "stopping" the string behind or ahead of where it's being played (in preparation for picking the next note), this technique might be handy. On steel, however, the vast majority of the time, we're playing using the bar and metal picks. Picking a string and then having the pick come slamming onto the next string would probably cause undesirable noise. On classical (acoustic) guitar, this isn't noticeable because it's your finger hitting the next string, and the guitar isn't as sensitive (amplified). But with a pick and electrification, I think the situation is far different. |
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Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Posted 8 Mar 2009 8:31 pm
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| Bo Legg wrote: |
| I think a lot of us already use a technique that includes what you describe. I call it "Advance Pick Blocking" as used by Paul Franklin. |
That name would describe it alright. I don't understand why it should be any noisier than the kinds of pick blocking I've been told about. It's one of the things I've been trying lately with some decent results. Ordered my first pedal guitar on this very day. So I've got to bring my blocking up to snuff.
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Amor vincit omnia |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 9 Mar 2009 5:07 am
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Well, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but "ordinary pick blocking" is used to dampen or stop the string you've just picked - not the one next to (below) it.  |
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Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Posted 9 Mar 2009 8:52 am
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You're right about that. I was asking about something else.
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Amor vincit omnia |
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Ulric Utsi-Åhlin
From:
Sweden
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Posted 9 Mar 2009 9:11 am
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The beneficial aspect of the rest stroke(in playing
of the Classical Guitar)is the quality of tone that
specific technique produces ; a fuller,meatier
timbre than the free stroke ; the blocking of the
adjacent string is more of a side effect.McUtsi |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 9 Mar 2009 12:11 pm
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I agree, Ulric, and I can easily understand why it would be useful to get a louder, fuller sound on an acoustic (classical) guitar.  |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 9 Mar 2009 12:57 pm
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The pick blocking of which I refer, you take your thumb, index and middle finger and place them on three different strings so when you pick one string your finger or thumb is resting on a string ready to pick. This topic is exactly about what pick blocking can do.
It would do little good for me to try to explain a technique that requires a lot of study and practice here in a few paragraphs on the Forum.
It is also unfair to say what advanced pick blocking does or does not do without first knowing how to do it. |
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Jim Robbins
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 9 Mar 2009 3:04 pm
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I'm curious as to whether rest stroke and advanced pick blocking are the same thing -- it sounds like maybe they're not from Bo's last post. (I'm curious mainly because I want to know more about advanced pick blocking.)
Rest stroke (classical technique) -- before you pick the string with your finger, your finger is not resting on the string. You strike the string with your finger and carry through with the motion so your finger comes to rest on the next lower string. Eg on a six string, if you are going to play a note on the B string with a rest stroke, you start with your finger in the air, strike the B string and land on the G string. (A rest stroke is impossible on the low E string because there is nothing lower to rest against.)
"Advanced Pick Blocking": you start with your finger on the string, lift, pick, return to the same string when you want to damp it. Eg on the 3rd string, you start with your pick touching the string, pluck, return it to the 3rd string without having that finger touch the 4th string.
Is that right? (I know the rest stroke part is right but don't know about the Advanced Pick Blocking part) |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 9 Mar 2009 4:28 pm
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I do exactly what you describe with the advanced pick blocking when I do banjo rolls on the PSG.
If I'm playing string motion as 3, 4, 5, 4, 5, 6, 5, 6, 7 banjo roll. The middle finger picks 3 rest on 4 picks 4, rests on 5 picks 5. My index finger picks 4 rests on 5 picks 5 rests on 6 picks 6. My Thumb picks 5 rests on 6 picks 6 rests on 7 picks 7. The bar is pulled back as you pick so that the index finger of the Bar hand that extends past the end of the Bar drags back over the string that is uncovered blocking that string.
Of course the same occurs when you roll the opposite direction except the string left uncovered is blocked by the fleshy part of the picking hand thumb.
Believe me you do a little of every technique with Advanced Pick Blocking and with a lot of practice it becomes like running you don't have to think about it you just do it. and you can pick these rolls incredible fast. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 9 Mar 2009 4:29 pm
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Jim, you are correct. The rest stroke of classical guitar has nothing to do with the pick blocking that pedal steelers often do. Pick blocking and "advanced" pick blocking techniques use the exact same movements, the only difference being the speed of the technique, and the combinations of strings used. You pick a string, and then rapidly dampen that string by re-applying the pick to the string just picked. THAT'S PICK BLOCKING.
The "rest stroke" of classical guitar, as Ulric stated, uses the next lowest string as a finger stop or rest. It is not really intended as a muting technique, and has no damping or "stopping" effect on the string picked.
I'm convinced there's a lot of misunderstanding about pick blocking. A previous discussion on the subject left me bewildered and confused when several posters insisted that using the thumb of the left hand (in front of the bar) was "pick blocking". Their (somewhat questionable) contention was that anything that wasn't "palm blocking" should be called "pick blocking". |
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Jim Robbins
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 9 Mar 2009 4:51 pm
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Bo, the technique you describe in that last post does sound like rest stroke -- except that in classical guitar you don't use rest stroke on arpeggios, uh, that is to say, rolls; and you would only do a rest stroke with your thumb for some wild effect.
In the example you give, how do you keep your third string from ringing? Also, is that a typo for your thumb? -- to pick 5, rest 6 with the thumb would require picking backwards with the thumb.
Donny, I agree about the purpose of rest stroke in classical guitar. On the issue of misunderstanding and confusion regarding pick blocking -- true enough, in fact all blocking seems to lend itself to a certain amount of misunderstanding and confusion. |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 9 Mar 2009 5:34 pm
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I approached the banjo roll above the same on the guitar as well. And it appears to be the same as what you describe as pick and rest.
No matter. Perhaps you could give me an example of how your concept works on the same banjo roll.
If you want to limit Advanced pick blocking to putting a pick on a string to block it. That’s OK by me
Advanced pick blocking to me is blocking strings with the picks and using various blocking techniques as necessary both with picking and bar hand to block whatever is left unblocked by pick blocking alone, including other techniques that work well in conjunction with pick blocking to achieve clean picking and blocking speed.
I think Paul Franklin or others might have a course on this that is very similar to what I describe.
I realize because I use this technique, that alone will truly kill about any interest anyone would have in Advanced Pick Blocking.
Just block out of your mind that I use this technique and think only about Paul Franklin. |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 9 Mar 2009 7:07 pm
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Donny, is absolutely right on the Pick Blocking.. End of story. 
Bo is right as far as the left hand, with dragging the bar back, and the finger blocks, but that is not pick blocking. Just another way of blocking.
Palm blocking, is what more than the average use, regardless of speed. The hand does NOT have to bounce in order to pull it off, that is to any noticable degree.
Some don't block at all.. Can't ya tell when they play!!!  |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 9 Mar 2009 7:21 pm
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Edward Meisse
| Quote: |
| I used to play classical guitar. They use a method called a rest stroke. When you pick a note, say on string one, your finger comes to, "rest," on string 2. I've never seen it discussed here. But it seems like it would be an effective blocking method while the steel is moving away from you. |
Let me give you my short long answer. No it would not be a good blocking method because your fingers are moving toward you and the melody is ascending away from you.
It would be useful in a limited portion of each movement of a descending melody and your fingers moving toward you.
With my middle finger I pick string 1 and let it rest on string 2 which also blocked the 2nd string that was just picked by my index finger which now rests on string 3 blocking it after the thumb had pick it. There were 3 notes played here and the pick rest thing happened twice and blocked. The blocking did not occur on the 1st string which is precisely why there are other techniques that are necessary to block strings that can’t be blocked by pick blocking or string rest blocking alone. There are several ways I could block the 1st string here but I will stick with the one I used in an earlier post here that said all the exact thing I have repeated here. To block the 1st string I pull the bar back toward me the middle finger of my bar hand extends out past the tip of the Bar and when you pull the bar back toward you off the 1st string the end of the middle finger blocks the 1st string.
I don't how much clearer I could make it to show that your pick rest blocking idea is found within the Advanced pick Blocking method.
It matters little what Pick blocking is or is not here, except what is common to this topic |
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Jim Robbins
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 9 Mar 2009 7:56 pm
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| OK, Bo, I think I got it -- so if you're doing a middle-index-thumb roll on strings 3,4,5 you block string 3 with your left hand. |
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Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Posted 9 Mar 2009 11:44 pm
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You say Franlin may have a course on this? I'll check his website. Thanks, Bo and everyone.
_________________
Amor vincit omnia |
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Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 10 Mar 2009 12:31 am
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Gosh Bo,
This seems like déjà vu all over again… Didn’t you have a similar thread about “pick-blocking” a few months ago? http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=144255&highlight=
Once again some people are “confusing the map with the territory”, and confusing the description with the actual technique. The term “pick-blocking”, when taken literally, does NOT accurately describe the technique that Paul Franklin, Joe Wright, Dave Ristrim and many others have mastered. So let’s call it “Technique X” for the moment, so as not to confuse the description with the actual technique.
For those of you still stuck on the literal description, please listen to Paul Franklin's solo on "Pick It Apart" on Mark O'Connor's “New Nashville Cats” CD, or better yet, watch it on Youtube: The New Nashville Cats on TNN- "Pick It Apart" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyR99JCXJMw
I clocked the tempo of this tune at 183 bpm (!) on the CD, and at 191 bpm (!!) on the Youtube videoclip. 
After you have watched/listened to Mr. Franklin's solo, then please show us how to play even one measure of Paul’s solo cleanly at 183 bpm only “blocking with your picks”-- the literal interpretation of the phrase “pick-blocking”. It can't be done.
So either Franklin. Wright, and others have acquired supernatural magic powers or they have developed certain blocking techniques that can be learned by the rest of us mere mortals, and the phrase “pick-blocking” is simply an inadequate description of what they are doing. 
Even people who can “pick-block” well often cannot explain how they are doing it. I found Joe Wright’s thorough analysis of so-called “pick-blocking” (or Technique X) on his instructional video to be excellent. The technique is extremely precise, and JOe explains it well. Check out this video of Joe playing Rocky Top: Rocky Top - Joe Wright http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNZv3V1xgLY
The phrase “pick-blocking” does not describe everything that Paul and Joe are doing. On the last go-round on this topic, I had suggested naming what they do "Pick-Blocking Plus", because they DO block with the picks, PLUS blocking in several other ways. “A rose by another name is still a rose”, as Willy Shakespeare once said.
Call it whatever you want. Just don’t miss out on learning something new because the description is confusing.
-Dave |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 10 Mar 2009 10:28 pm
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Thank you Dave for your insight.
I had to get away for a day my head was spinning.
when I nearly went crazy on this topic about 6 mos ago, at that time I just thought all these years everybody blocked like I do and the whole concept was called pick blocking. I was just amazed that it was like nobody ever heard of it.
I like your Name for this technique Pick Blocking Plus.
I thought of another name "Everything Except Palm Blocking Blocking"
I watched a young kid back in the 80es picking with Frenchy Burke.
He pick blocked and raised the back or the bar up and just used the point of the bar for the fast single line licks.
So I ordered a pick blocking course.
It took me 6 mos to break all my old habits and another 6 mos to learn the pick blocking course.
I remember being disappointed that the playing with the tip of the bar wasn't in the book so I added that to the technique.
Pick blocking and picking hand blocking was the easy part.
All that Bar hand blocking took lots of practice and still requires a lot of practice to keep it correct.
If anyone thinks they're going to get this course and learn it all in a week or so, boy are they in for a butt kickin. |
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Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Posted 10 Mar 2009 10:55 pm
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It's beginning to sound like I'll be able to carry more of my non pedal blocking techniques onto my pedal guitar than I had been thinking. That's a good thing.
_________________
Amor vincit omnia |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 11 Mar 2009 4:40 am
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This is really starting to get silly, so I'll wrap up my thoughts with the following...
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| I just thought all these years everybody blocked like I do and the whole concept was called pick blocking. |
Well, with utmost respect, you thought wrong. Actually, what we'e arguing here is semantics, but it's very important, IMHO. There are many blocking techniques, and to be a good player, you need to know and use most of them. Anyone who studies the greats will find that most all of them tilt the bar, and use just the end occasionally. That's not a new technique, and it certainly isn't "pick blocking", either. You have to realize that there are several blocking techniques that aren't either pick blocking or palm blocking. (For the sake of those who are new at this, let's at least get the terminology right.) What we're doing isn't rocket science, and I think we should avoid vague terms like "advanced gobbledygook" or whatever, and call things exactly what they are. If you're blocking with the thumb of your left hand, let's call that "left hand thumb blocking". See how easy it is? And, there's no confusion over what's happening.
Lastly (Dave), neither I nor anyone else said that pick blocking is all that Paul uses. On Paul's "Pick It Apart" solo, I haven't really studied it that closely, but I'd be willing to wager he uses several blocking techniques, but that the "rest-stroke" of classical guitar probably isn't one of them! One thing is for certain, though - he uses many blocking techniques, and he's better than you or I at all of them. 
Have a nice day! |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 11 Mar 2009 5:55 am
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| Quote: |
| Lastly (Dave), neither I nor anyone else said that pick blocking is all that Paul uses. |
Paul said it. It's a matter of semantics.
From the stuff Paul has published or said on the Forum it is clear that he considers pick blocking to include left hand techniques and sometimes not blocking at all. It is impossible to block everything with the picks and left hand blocking is used often with descending patterns. Joe Wright even blocks with the thumb of the left hand on ascending patterns (low to high strings). I believe I have also heard Joe mention that he uses the back side of the pick (vaguely reminiscent of the rest stroke blocking in the title) in some context.
Bottom line: it's counterproductive to be so dogmatic about this. What works best for YOU is what works best for you and what you call it is also up to you. For ME, if the player doesn't consciously mute strings with the right palm, by default, I call it (IMHO) PICK BLOCKING.
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
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Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2009 9:06 am
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Sorry to start such a brouhaha. But sometimes we less experienced players ask what we think are going to be easy questions........ 
_________________
Amor vincit omnia |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 11 Mar 2009 10:06 am
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Sorry, Ed. Maybe I was a bit harsh. It's just my take on it. If a note is best blocked with the end of your nose, DO IT. If it sounds right it is right.
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
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