overdrive for steel

David Cook · From: Florida, USA

HI,
I'm playing single coil steels thru a 60's blackface Twin. I'm using a Cmatmods "Butah" overdrive going into an original Proco Rat. Sounds like I should be satisfied with the overdrive sound but it's not there. I've seen that the Zendrive doesn't sound as good thru a single coil. Does anyone have experience with this? Thanks!

I know that several of you recommend the Seymour Duncan with the tube. I am a little worried about replacing the tube when it goes. Anyone replaced the tube yet?

David Doggett · Posted 27 Feb 2009 10:31 am

If you want to overdrive the BF Twin, shouldn't the overdrive unit be the last thing going into the amp?

Haven't replaced the tube in my SD Twin Tube yet, but I've only had it a couple of years. I think they are miniature tubes designed to last a very long time.

I tried a Zendrive2 (with single coil pup), which has a real tube in it. It has a smoother, more mellow tone than the SD Twin Tube. My problem with it is that it is either on or off, like a fuzz box. I couldn't get it to be pick sensitive the way the SD Twin Tube is, if you put it before the volume pedal.

I'm assuming you are talking about pedal steel. Most fuzz/distortion/overdrive boxes have a different sound with steel than with guitar. You can't extrapolate from one to the other.

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

My understanding is that those tubes are not replacable by the user and the pedal would have to be sent back to seymour duncan should they fail. they are miltary spec small tubes with carzy little lead wires instead of prongs. Being military spec they are designed to last the life of the pedal, but I have heard of them failing on people in various reviews. It was a concern for me also. I figured i could live with the risk. One kinda neat thing is that you can stick an overdrive in front of the twin tube and push those little tubes even harder. Its overkill on steel but works nicely on 6 string guitar if you wanna go over the top gain wise.

Nathan Golub · From: Durham, NC

Have you tried Paul Cochrane's Tim/Timmy pedal yet? I use the Timmy for overdrive on guitar, and the EQ section is great—it's a reductive circuit that allows you to take out high end and low end. It's a very flexible design that allows you to tweak the tone depending on your amp/pickup combination and stacks great with other pedals. Gets mentioned a lot with the booteek stuff.

John Gould · From: Houston, TX Now in Cleveland TX

A couple of other tube overdrives are out there and sound pretty good. Radial has a few different version of the TONE BONE. Electro Harmonix has the English Muffin. Of course tone and sound are like religion everyone has a different belief! There are a few more Maxon has the TOD-9,Swell G-TOD Overdrive, The Button Tube Overdrive. Good luck searching for that Holy Grail of tone.
_________________
A couple of guitars
Fender GTX 100 Fender Mustang III Fender Blues Jr. Boss Katana MKII 50
Justice Pro Lite and Sho Bud Pro II

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I use a BossTone (because it's easy). But IMHO, the very best overdrive sound in a tube amp takes place when you overdrive the first preamp stage. You get a warm, fat sound, and endless sustain. I built a one-tube, two-stage preamp decades ago that had a gain of about 150. That did it for me. Winking

When you want to maintain the characteristic sound of the amp, the overdrive should take place in the amp. Not in an outboard device.

Cliff Kane · From: the late great golden state

I have a '68 Twin, pretty much a blackface with a low output transformer, and what I've been doing is using a channel switcher before the amp and putting a preamp boost pedal between the channel switcher and channel one. What I have now is a nice clean channel with channel two and an overdriven channel with channel one. I have another boost pedal on my board if I want to overdrive channel two, but it's nice being able to EQ the two channels for switching them. I also have an MXR Distortion Plus on my board for distortion. So far this setup has worked pretty well.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

I think you may be confusing your terminology.

True "overdrives" sound best when used with an already-cranked tube amp, just on the edge of distortion, The OD pedal drives them over that edge giving you a slightly distorted, smooth, saturated sound with a hint of compression.

Many players try to take "overdrives", plug them into a high powered tube amp turned up to 2 or 3 (or a SS amp turned up to anything...) and wonder why the tone isn't there.

What is your "target tone"? Are you trying to get the sound of a Twin turned up all the way but at lower volume? If so, you really need a good distortion pedal - NOT and overdrive...but if that Twin is running at 2 or 3 on the volume control it's still not going to sound very good.

A tube amp (also somewhat true of solid-state amps) has to be run pretty hot before the tone "opens up" - an at 2 or 3 you are not even driving the speakers enough to get any semblance of decent tone.

If, OTOH, you're running it at a mid-volume level and have it biased at (on average) 35 ma or so, a decent distortion box may give you the edge you are looking for. But the bias setting is also VERY critical - and where there's a bit of a conundrum, because if you want a crystal-clear clean tone you need to bias it on the colder side (just under 30ma for starters)...and that loses you the warmth you need for distortion.

Anyway - back to basics, and a few questions:

1. Are you playing out or at home?
2. What volume level(s) are you running?
3. What tone are you trying to hit? Can you give an example?

Very often Twin users are victims of "too much amp syndrome" - you can't turn it up enough to warm up the sound, and an OD is a bad choice, tube-drive or not with a cold-running amp. You can get some sort of semi-decent distortion tone (again - NOT overdrive)...depending on what type you are aiming for...but a warm "blues tone" like an old tweed Deluxe just doesn't live in that amp at low volume. At higher volume there are a lot of choices - but they ALL depend on how your amp is biased, what power tubes you're using, what speakers are in it etc. Sometimes pulling the two outer or inner power tubes, unhooking one speaker (for correct impedance) and running a lower-powered 1x12 amp is a far better tonal choice.

But there's no way to tell from just knowing you're unhappy with the (either overdrive or distortion) tone (and it's more difficult to figure out what you want with your combination of pedals) - knowing what you WANT to hear is more important.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Jim Ives · From: Los Angeles, California, USA

Zen drive and Ibanez TSD9X. I use one or the other, depending on the sound I want. They go to a 1000 or a 112.
-Jim

Jay Jessup · From: Charlottesville, VA, USA

The problem with overdrive on pedal steel is that the strings are thin and the pickups, even on older guitars are much hotter than guitar pickups so if its the dirty guitar sound you are looking for it's a little harder to get than you think it ought to be. Then you have to say away from the mashing pedal A&B sound if you want to sound like blues/rock guitar sounds.

Dan Tyack · From: Olympia, WA USA

IMHO it's hard to beat the combination of the Zen Drive and a twin, it's a match made in tone heaven. The Duncan twin tube is great too, as is the FullDrive 2.

That said, I have a somewhat different idea of the ideal overdrive than my fellow forumite Donny (surprise, surprise). I think that the key to great overdrive is not in the preamp, but in the power amp. I prefer a relatively low gain (in rock and roll terms) preamp gain, but really pushing the power amp tubes. Now with a twin, when you get to this point you will be deaf, so what I would do is get out a THD Hotplate, which allows you to push the power amp, but keep the volume safe and sane.

Or you could just put an overdrive pedal in front of the twin. Smile

Doug Palmer · From: Greensboro, North Carolina, USA

Just take a razor blade to your speakers.
_________________
Emmons D-10, ST-10,LD-10 III, NV-112,Fender Deluxe Reverb. Authorized wholesale dealer musicorp.com!

Jay Ganz · From: Out Behind The Barn

The BEST one I've tried yet. Full range, from clean boost to subtle overdrive to super sustain distortion.
Also with true bypass, very low noise, and seperate bass & treble controls (instead of just tone).

Mike Poholsky · From: Kansas, USA

Has anyone tried a Twin and a smaller amp (Princeton or Deluxe) together, with a signal going to each? Then adjust the smaller amp to distortion with the power of the Twin along with it. More distortion, turn the small amp up and the Twin down. Just curious, I don't have anything smaller than a Twin to try it out.
_________________
Zumsteel 12 Universal
SGBB
ShoBud VP
'64 Fender Twin Reverb/Fox Rehab
Fender Steel King w/BW 1501-4
FX to Taste

Darvin Willhoite · From: Roxton, Tx. USA

I like the ProCo Rat with single coils or humbuckers.
_________________
Darvin Willhoite
MSA Millennium, Legend, and Studio Pro, Reese's restored Universal Direction guitar, a restored MSA Classic SS, several amps, new and old, and a Kemper Powerhead that I am really liking. Also a Zum D10, a Mullen RP, and a restored Rose S10, named the "Blue Bird". Also, I have acquired and restored the plexiglass D10 MSA Classic that was built as a demo in the early '70s. I also have a '74 lacquer P/P, with wood necks, and a showroom condition Sho-Bud Super Pro.

Jan Jonsson · From: Gothenburg, Sweden

David Doggett · Posted 10 Mar 2009 7:23 am

The Voodoo Labs Sparkle Drive does what you are describing with two amps. It has a distortion channel and a clean channel and allows you to mix them any way you want.

If I was getting several hundred dollars a night and had roadies, I might consider bringing two amps. But for 30 bucks a night - no way.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

We've been here frequently, and recently:

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=140650

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=135212

I haven't had to change the tubes in my Duncan Twin Tube yet. I don't think it's a big deal, but apparently they need to be soldered in. I think any competent tech that could work on a tube amp should be able to do this easily. I will probably do it myself, but if I'm too busy to deal with it at the time, my buddy Dave Sarge can certainly handle this with no trouble. I certainly will not ship it back to Santa Barbara, that's for sure.

David Wren · From: Placerville, California, USA

Another vote for the Ibanez TS9DX, with the original tube screamer settings, and 3 additional modes. My unit has been used a lot over the last 5 years, and seems very road worthy, as well producing a nice sustaining overdrive tone.

However... I don't use it much with the western swing band I am playing with now Smile

_________________
Dave Wren
'96 Carter U12,7X7; 1936 7 string National; Line 6 HX Stomp; Quilter TT-15/TB202; Quilter "Steelaire"; DV Mark "GH 250"with 15" 1501 BW; Boss "Katana" 100 Head w/Line 6 Cab; Telonics VP.

Mike Poholsky · From: Kansas, USA

Jan, Thats exactly what I was thinking about. How well does that work? Can you mix the volume of the two amps to get a true distortion tone that you can hear without overpowering it with the FSK? If that setup does get that sweet distortion + some power, carrying aound a Princeton or a Champ my not be that big a deal.

David, my thought on this was being able to get a true distorted amp sound without having to use any kind of FX. Yet, still have some power provided by the larger amp.
_________________
Zumsteel 12 Universal
SGBB
ShoBud VP
'64 Fender Twin Reverb/Fox Rehab
Fender Steel King w/BW 1501-4
FX to Taste

David Cook · From: Florida, USA

Thanks so much for all the replies!! You can sure learn a lot on this forum. I have reversed the effects and have the "Butah" overdrive last in the chain. I am plugging my Shobud Professional into Channel 2 of the reverb side of the Twin. I am using a Weber 15in neomagnet and I love the sound. I am also now turning the amp up to 10 but I am using a Matchbox to control volume. Wouldn't it be nice to have all the different overdrives to compare. I probably should have gotten the Seymour Duncan but had read so many good reviews of the "Butah" as a low gain overdrive. You know I think my wife might divorce me if I get anything else right now. I haven't used the overdrives at gigs. They are just for fun at home. Having a nice distorted tone makes me practice more especially with the blues scale( minor pentatonic)

Jan Jonsson · From: Gothenburg, Sweden

Mike Poholsky · From: Kansas, USA

Thanks for the info Jan.
_________________
Zumsteel 12 Universal
SGBB
ShoBud VP
'64 Fender Twin Reverb/Fox Rehab
Fender Steel King w/BW 1501-4
FX to Taste

Forum Index > Electronics		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic