50 years ago today: R. Valens, B. Holly & the Big Bopper

[Mike Perlowin]

How many of us remember that terrible day?

[Roger Rettig]

Me!!!!

I arrived at the newsagent for whom I delivered papers as a 15-year old, and there it was. I wandered around in a daze contemplating the implications.

Interesting to note, though, that by February, 1959, Buddy's hits had dried up somewhat (that early!!), he'd split with the Crickets, and his career was in a slump. That all changed, of course, but it took a tragedy to turn things around. It also gave rise to a couple of mawkish 'tribute songs' in the UK.

I was fortunate enough to work with Sonny Curtis in the '90s, and he has a fund of stories about, as well as great affection for, Buddy. Sonny was one of Holly's first musical collaborators, but left to play with Slim Whitman just before the first big hit (!!!)

[Stephen Gambrell]

Shouldn't this be in "MUSIC," especially now?

[John Floyd]

After 50 years, its hardly news and with some of the losses we've had recently, Its Downright disrespectful. almost as bad as posting somebodys car died.

[Adam Przybyla]

I'm sorry, but why should this topic be considered disrespectful to anybody? This section is subtitled "Obituaries and Rembrances," after all. So many people here are sharing their stories of how Tom Brumley influenced them to start playing pedal steel, and I'm sure just as many would say that Buddy Holly was key in prompting them to take up guitar (myself included). I don't think the fact that he's been gone for 50 years makes him less worthy of a simple tribute, and his death (or Ritchie Valens' or the Big Bopper's) is hardly comparable to someone's car dying.

[rpetersen]

John - Sorry about your car

Remember it well - They came through my home town of Tipton, Iowa on there way to Clear Lake and stopped and had their bus worked on as the heater wasn't keeping up - I didn't get a chance to witness it, but they sang with some of their records on a juke box at a little cafe and went shopping in several stores while they were there - I became a very close friend with one of the original members (who was no longer with them on the tour) - Nick (Nicki) Sullivan - if you ever see the clip on the Ed Sullivan show, he was on your far left playing rythym guitar and his picture is also on some of the first albums. Was neat trading stories about our musical lives for many years - We lost him around 10 years ago with Sleep Apnea - still stay in touch with his family now and then

[rpetersen]

Got to thinking about John's H.U.H.A. message -
I suppose since it has been many years, that goes the same for Hank Williams etc.

I didn't dare fill out the code!!

[Dave Mudgett]

I do remember seeing it on the news, since we always watched the news at or around dinner time. I was just a kid.

I also don't think a remembrance on the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the death of these three highly influential musicians is out of place here or disrespectful at all. In a few years when the 60th anniversary of Hank Williams' death comes up, I certainly think it will be appropriate to mark that also.

[b0b]

I moved this because it turned into a debate about the use of the forum. Frankly, I think that the number of forum members who ever met Buddy Holly can probably be counted on the fingers of one hand.

The guy's biggest hits were blatant rip-offs of Bo Diddly. If he hadn't died, he'd have been washed up within a few years. Just my opinion. What do I know. I was just a kid.

[rpetersen]

I moved this because it turned into a debate about the use of the forum. Frankly, I think that the number of forum members who ever met Buddy Holly can probably be counted on the fingers of one hand.

The guy's biggest hits were blatant rip-offs of Bo Diddly. If he hadn't died, he'd have been washed up within a few years. Just my opinion. What do I know. I was just a kid.

b0b - You probably don't have enough fingers on your hand for that statement - I'm not that old and we always did his songs and the crowds of all ages always loved them and knew who he was!!

The Beatles even said that Buddy's new style of music was an influence to them. (for whatever that was worth)

[Mike Perlowin]

I think that if the plane had not crashed, none of the 3 would have survived the early 60s folk boom and the later emergence of rock.

I think Buddy Holly would have moved to a behind the scenes position, becoming a producer, or A&R man, or record company executive. J.P. Richardson would probably haver gone back to being a disk jockey, probably continuing to use his "Big Bopper"name.

Richie Valens (who did not speak Spanish) might have been able to sustain his career in the Hispanic community.

And of course. all 3 would have performed on oldies shows.

[Roger Rettig]

Well - I'm not a die-hard Holly fan, but I'd take issue with b0b's statement. Maybe he did employ some of Bo Diddley's rhythm patterns, but things looked up a bit when he added some music to them.

It would be a pretty dull world if no-one was allowed to copy or take inspiration from anyone else, wouldn't it? Where would the Beatles have been without the Everlys, Holly or Lonnie Donegan?

(I know - it's all personal opinion...)

[Roger Rettig]

Couldn't this topic have gone to 'Music'? (Seems appropriate to me.)

I agree with Mike P's post just above (even 'though I still think he should have bought a Lincoln Town Car... )

[Roger Rettig]

Ron wrote:

"b0b - You probably don't have enough fingers on your hand for that statement"

b0b said 'ever MET Buddy Holly', not who liked his records. b0b's probably spot on with that guess!

[Adam Przybyla]

Wait a minute, so if Buddy Holly was "blatantly" ripping of Bo Diddley, does that mean Buddy Emmons (and every pedal steel player for the past 50-some years) has been blatantly ripping off Bud Isaacs every time he's stepped on his A and B pedals? I'm sorry, but you can't be a musician and NOT have your influences show through a little bit. I wasn't even born until almost twenty years after the crash, but I think the guy wrote some pretty alright tunes. Sure, they were simple, and he wasn't exactly singing about anything all that profound, but what do you want from a 20 year old guy playing what was still a relatively new style of music? Whether you like him or not, he was influential, and the fact that there are a lot of people who still enjoy his songs after 50 years of hearing them over and over says something, and I see no good reason why anyone should be kept from paying tribute to him in the tribute section of this forum. The Ron Asheton tribute that came up in 'Gone Home' a few weeks ago certainly didn't spark any controversy, and I somehow doubt that many Forum members are big Stooges fans.

[b0b]

I figured that would get a rise out of some people.

I just get sick of the Buddy Holly hero worship. His sudden, untimely death was what made him famous. Otherwise, I firmly believe that his songs would have faded into obscurity.

Would the Beatles have mentioned him as an influence if he had churned out five more years worth of pop drivel? He was cool because he died young, and his initial spark was all that anyone ever heard.

[Roger Rettig]

I felt the same way about that Jimi Hendrix thread recently.

[Mike Perlowin]

I firmly believe that his songs would have faded into obscurity.

b0b, with all due respect, I disagree. I think that while Holly himself would have faded from the public eye and assumed behind-the-scenes role, the songs themselves would still be part of the public's (at least our generation's) consciousness the same way the Everly Brothers' early hits like Bye Bye Love and Let It Be Me are.

Let us not forget that Holly also produced all his records. (I think Rick Nelson did too, but I'm not sure.) I believe that long after his public persona faded, he would still have been a major league producer, not unlike Peter Asher (of Peter and Gordon) and Ray Manzarak (keyboard player with the Doors.)

[Jussi Huhtakangas]

I disagree too. Holly's songwriting was a major influence on The Beatles, not because he died early. He was one of the few r'n'r roll stars to tour England and to influence the next generation, and the next generation of pop and rock artists and bands. Harrison and Keith Richards both attended Holly's shows in England. And even if the Beatles had never mentioned Holly as an influence, it wouldn't take anything away from the fact that Holly recorded tons of great songs, wrote memorable songs and was a big star in his day. Most likely had he lived, he would've ventured to be a producer, songwriter artist, who knows. And the funny thing is that his most obscure recordings, early Decca rockabilly sides have been a HUGE ( did I say HUGE ) influence to my generation of r'n'r fans all over the world, and that's two generations after him. Go to Tokyo or to Stockholm or Berlin to a rockabilly club and ask a guitar player to play Holly's "Blue Days, Black Nights", and they'll pick it note for note it in their sleep. There's just no way to under estimate his influence. And I'm not even a huge Holly fan really

[b0b]

There's just no way to under estimate his influence.

Wanna bet?

Okay, maybe I'm yanking some chains a bit, but do we really have to go through this American Pie syndrome every February?

[Roger Rettig]

"There's just no way to under estimate his influence."

Oh, I don't know - I think b0b's found a way...

(Sorry - I couldn't resist; I think Jussi meant 'overestimate'...)

[Mike Perlowin]

Bobby, Count your blessings. Buddy Holly liked Bluegrass. You should be grateful that he didn't use a b---o on any of his recordings.

[Dave Mudgett]

I don't think it matters a whit who thinks Buddy Holly, Jimi Hendrix, Hank Williams - or or anybody else - is or is not important musically, culturally, humanistically, or on any other front. Everybody has their opinions, no problem.

IMHO, the problem with what happened on this thread is that people who seem, to me, to have an axe to grind have been allowed to disrupt a remembrance thread on the 50th anniversary of someone who - I don't care who thinks it's deserved or not - meant a lot to a helluva lot of people.

I'd love to see the reaction if complaints like this happened on a remembrance thread about a much-beloved country singer. I think it is much better judgment to email a moderator instead of complain on a remembrance thread like this. I think it's a good idea to tread lightly on this type of thing.

I think that if "Going Home - Obituaries and Remembrances" is for both obituaries and remembrances, then this thread fit there just fine. If it is to be restricted to only recent obituaries (which I think would be very reasonable), then I think it would be a good idea to change the description and then enforce that.

Okay, maybe I'm yanking some chains a bit, but do we really have to go through this American Pie syndrome every February?

This is the 50th. It's a milestone - a chance to reflect on a lot of things that went with that. It wasn't just Buddy, the Big Bopper, and Ritchie Valens. It was the end of the rock and roll era.

OK - I expect that there are a bunch of people here and elsewhere that were happy to see that era pass. No problem, but I would say don't stomp on the graves of other peoples' sacred cows - we all have them. What goes around ultimately winds up coming back around.

My opinions, as always.

[b0b]

Okay, I concede defeat. I won't badmouth Buddy Holly no more.

By the way, Mike had the date wrong. It was Feb 3, not Feb 4.

[HowardR]

If it is to be restricted to only recent obituaries (which I think would be very reasonable), then I think it would be a good idea to change the description

I agree....I vote for a......."change that we can believe in".......

"OUR EXPENDED FAMILY"