8 string "universal"?

[John Allison]

Greetings folks...
I'd like to apologize in advance for what may turn into a long winded post my first time on the forum. I'll do my best to be concise.

First off, I'll introduce myself: My name is John Allison and I live in Austin, Texas. I've been a professional luthier for over 25 years, now. I build acoustic steel string guitars and I do repairs on (mostly fretted) stringed instruments of all sorts, acoustic and electric. I've been playing some C6 lap steel on and off for a couple of years and while I'm not a particularly advanced player, I can hold my own in a jam or casual gig. Even though I know that I could spend the rest of my life exploring the possibilities of lap steel, I've been really wanting to get into pedal steel. There's just no substitute for "that" sound.

I've been playing a little with a borrowed E9 pedal steel - it's one of Jim Flynn's wonderful Lone Star S10's. I'm starting to find my way around and I'm able to accomplish some simple moves and get some of the sounds I hear in the old country music that I like. Since I really want to be able to keep the full C6 tuning (or rather switch to B6) , I'd like to utilize a tuning that will get me there with one or two levers, but still let me have the basic core of the E9. I'd like an 8 string for several reasons and I can have Jim Flynn build me a nice one.

Here's my thinking about a possible tuning/copedant that'll suit my needs. I'm hoping to get some input and opinions as to what's good and what's bad about this set up. I know it won't give me the full range of possibilities in E9, but I bet it'll keep me busy for as long as I care to pursue it.

[tab]
------LKL---LKR----P----P2----P3---RKL---RKR
1 G#--------?F#---------A-----------?--------
2 E----F-----D#---------------F#-------------
3 B----------------C#---------C#-------------
4 G#--------------------A--------------------
5 F#-----------------------------------------
6 E----F-----D#------------------------------
7 B----------------C#--------------------?D--
8 G#--------------------A----------------?B-- [/tab]

What I'm trying to get to is a pretty straight, simple E9 functionality without the "chromatics".
I'm using the LKR to put me into the 61356135 tuning in B as well as giving me a straight, full 5 chord from the E, but does the string 1 change wreck things for more standard changes/licks?
Does the G# to F# drop need to be on the RKL?
If I do use the LKR for the string 1 drop, it leaves the right knees open for a number of possible pulls.
If I put the 1 1/2 step raises on strings 7 and 8, I get to the standard E9 low notes for those strings, but maybe I need to find some better 7th/b7th notes?
There are bound to be "must have" pulls that I just don't know about

If I'm way out in left field, please don't hesitate to tell me so. Any feedback will be much appreciated.
Thanks to all.
J A

[b0b]

I've been thinking about 8-string E9th too. Here's the general direction I've been taking:
[tab] LL LR P1 P2 P3 RL RR
D# -D/C#
G# -G +A
E +F ++F# -D#
B ++C# ++C#
G# +A
F#
E +F --D -D#
B ++C#[/tab]

[Pete Burak]

I have a Sierra S8U with 5 pedals and 4 knee levers.
It was originally custom ordered as an S8 5x2 C6th tuning for a player who has since passed on.
I had Tom Baker at Sierra help me to bring it to a 5x4 B6/E9 S8U.
It is a pro level guitar based on the Sierra Crown series guitars.
I have the A & B pedals of E9th, and pedals 5,6,7 of C6th (B6th with E's lowered to Eb).
LKL=E's to F's.
LKV = B's to Bb's.
RKL = string four E to F# (the C pedal) and string eight B to D (typically used independantly of each other).
RKR = E's to Eb's.
It works great!

Top to Bottom:
G#
F#
E
B
G#
F#
E
B

fwiw, I have at least 5 pedal steels downstairs, so let me know if you are interested (no worries if not, I love having this thing around!).
Pete B.

[Bobby Snell]

Hello, John, I hope to meet you in this "Little Town with the Big Guestlist."

The only change to your original chart that I suggest would be to separate out the G#-F# lower to your RKL. Dropping the E's is often used in conjunction with P2 to get the DomVII.

Could Jim make you a "locking" lever? Are you mostly planning on playing B6 in a non-pedal manner? Maybe you could have that G#-F# on a little cam or something and save the RKL for another change.

Jim Flynn's guitars are way cool. I want a skeleton type 8-string set up for wild stuff.

[b0b]

Most changers can't handle lowering a high G# to F#. The thin string requires too much travel.

[Ken Metcalf]

Hey John,
I have some spare PSGs and a brand new Carter Universal 12 string you can check out for what does what..
and a C6th Guyatone lap steel.
I play the A6th with pedals down a lot and of course Es lowered B6th.
This is what you hear on my (My Space) and could be done on 8 strings. Jim Flynn is a good guy.
Most of those licks I learned from Herb Steiner's swinging on E9th stuff.
I am in Austin.

[John Allison]

Hello, John, I hope to meet you in this "Little Town with the Big Guestlist."

Bobby "Scrap Iron" Snell! I used to see you playing with Cornell Hurd, though I don't get out as much as I used to. I'm a friend of Paul Skelton. I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to run into one another around here. I wondered about the Dom7th. I'll have to check with Jim to see if the mechanism will allow for P2 to still work on string 4. And, yes, locking levers are something I thought about right away. Most likely seperating them is the way to go.

Ken, I really appreciate your offer and would like to meet up with you at some point.

Pete, your Sierra sounds really intriguing and I'd love to find out more about it. I'll PM later.

B0b, Thanks for your input. I've been talking with Jim about the issues with changer travel and string guage. We'll just have to see if this idea is viable or if I just have to figure out a different way to do things.

Thanks for you responses, gentlemen...
J A

[b0b]

Sneaky Pete managed to get country-sounding changes out of his B6th:<center>


</center>

P1 and P2 are similar to the E9th A & B pedals, but voiced a 4th lower. RK works with P1 and P2 down to give the E9th A+B stomp sound.

P5 and P6 are similar to the two main C6th pedals, a half-step lower (since it's B6th). You could remove the low string and add a high F# since you're used to a high G on your C6th. You could even raise the whole thing half a step to be a real C6th, with some Sneaky Country stuff added.

[b0b]

b0b,

How would you adapt Sneaky Pete's concept to a double raise/double lower 5X5 10 string?

What would you leave out or combine, going from 11 changes to 10?

I've never played that copedent so I can't really say. The question is off topic for this "8 string universal" discussion, so I moved it into a new topic.

[b0b]

Here's the whole nine yards:
[tab]8 string E9/B6 Universal

LKL LKV LKR p1 p2 p3 p4 p5 p6 p7 p8 RKL RKR
1 G# +A -G
2 E +F ++F# +E -D#
3 B -Bb ++C# ++C# ++C#
4 G# +A ++A# ++A#
5 F# +G -F
6 E +F --D -D#
7 B ++C# +C +++D
8 G# +A ++A# +++B [/tab]
LKR is pretty much up for grabs. Jeff Newman didn't even use it.

[John Allison]

Holy cow, B0b...
That's amazing! If I thought for a second that I could learn to use all those notes, I would totally build that instrument!
As it is there's a couple of changes that even I can see would be way cool to have.

One thing that I've realized is that I can tune the low strings to the standard D and B of the E9 and lower (with the same lever that I'd like to use for the string 1 lower) and get my B and G# notes to fill out my 6 tuning. Frees up another lever

I just got back from Jim Flynn's shop. One of my customers has a couple of instruments under way - a 6 string PS that's dobro tuned and set up for mostly drops to minors and an actual dobro that's getting knee levers (wild!). I tagged along with him to meet Jim and check out a couple of his instruments. Very nice guy and a a consummate craftsman and tinkerer.
We talked about the G# to F# drop on string 1. He thinks it can be done. He has an 8 string in his shop right now that might undergo a couple of alterations to test out the idea.

[b0b]

John, you're thinking that you need that F# for the high 5th sound on B6th. You're forgetting that by pressing the first two pedals you have a full A6th tuning with the high 5th on the E string.

I kept thinking about how I would do a U-8. I don't normally have a "C" pedal - I like getting the F# with a knee lever instead. I wanted to get it down to 5 pedals but settled for 6. This is what I came up with:
<center>

</center>
The (+) is where you don't really need the E string raise on a universal - you just release the lowering lever RKL.

P4 is missing because P5 is just so darned useful with the "B" pedal right beside it.

[Bobby Snell]

That's why b0b's the boss! Good Idea! Tuning to a D9/G6 is another thought, to get some lower strings.

John, I sent you a PM.

[John Allison]

John, you're thinking that you need that F# for the high 5th sound on B6th. You're forgetting that by pressing the first two pedals you have a full A6th tuning with the high 5th on the E string.

Brilliant! It just keeps getting better!
I was aware of the 6 note in the IV-chord, but I'd failed to realize that by using that low string configuration, I'm filling in the lower part of that tuning. It gives me the exact 1-3-5-6-1-3-5 that I'm playing on my 7 string lap.

I've been listening to more C6 PS. I'd been thinking that I'd want to stick to no-pedal lap style for the 6-tuned stuff, but I can see that I'd want to eventually learn how to use some of those pedal changes.

[Pete Cormier]

JOHN
ON MY D-8 PEDALMASTER,ROY THOMAS SET IT UP JUST LIKE YOU,EXCEPT.
----LKR--------RKL------RKR-----
1.---------------------------
2.---Eb----------------------
3.--------------------------
4.-------------F#--------------
5.----------------------------
6.---Eb--------------------------
7.-----------------------D---------
8.------------------------------
i'm still not worth a hoot on it but i think its all there
pete

[Al Marcus]

John-good interesting post.

b0b-You have some good charts there. Nice. I would like to ask you , What program do you use to get the template for the charts? or How can I get my tunings in a nice chart like that.? Good Post..thanks..al.

[b0b]

Al, the Sneaky Pete chart was Excel, captured with Paint Shop Pro. The U-8 chart was AppleWorks, captured with Apple's Grab utility and then converted to JPEG with Adobe Fireworks.

The 8 string E9th was made in Windows Notepad, and copy/pasted into the forum message between [tab] [/tab] BBCode tokens.

I basically use whatever I have at hand.

[Al Marcus]

b0b-Thanks for the tips, I'll try them..al.