Tuning question everyone please read

Gary Steele · From: Columbus, Ohio, USA

I'v tried several things with tuning. I might say that this is only your opinion and this is not for any arguments of any kind. I hope this will help me and many other people. If you dont want to respond here you can email me direct. I know great pickers that tune up with the strobe and play, And i know great players also that tune straight up 440. But it seems like when you tune it to itself it takes out overtones or whatever that is we hear. Of all the people you know that plays, What method of tuning seems to be the best way. It seems like when you tune to the Strobe like the temper tuning or any of the others programmed in there,Then you listen by ear and start turning the keys and listen for the sweet spots it seems like the sweet spots sound a little better than just using the tuner only. It just seems to be so much better with the ear tuning. If you feel like one certain person has the best method, I would like to have a copy to try. Seems like you can have the best system but if them notes are not in tune it drives me crazy. Sometimes i also think i dont wind my strings on the key enough and i think they slip a little. I'm not sure of this but it seems to. Have you guys ever had this to happen?
Thanks for all input. Anyone can respond.

Gary Steele

Bill Dobkins · From: Rolla Missouri, USA

Gary, I beleave every steel is different and has its own personality and niches. I've always been amazed that people like Buddy E can set down to any steel, tune it and play it and make it sound great.
I tune my E's with a tuner and tune the rest by ear.
I do this out of habbit. As a guitar player for years I have always tuned to the band by ear. Until a few years ago I never had a tuner and didn't want one.
I think we depend to much on them.
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Rich Peterson · From: Moorhead, MN

The steel can be in tune with itself, at least on some chords, but then is not in tune with the rest of the band, especially the keyboard. I'm accustomed to the slightly out-of-tune sound of equal temperament on keys and fretted instruments, so I just tune to the meter.

Heck, being slightly out of tune is what makes a 12-string guitar sound good, or a symphony orchestra. It's also the reason they make chorus pedals.

Ulric Utsi-Åhlin · From: Sweden

All "in tune"-playing of the PSG is the product of
some trickery on the part of the player...problem is,
it´s next to impossible to explain how we do it...
it becomes second-nature...I´ll give self-analysis a
shake and report any interesting results...McUtsi

Ulric Utsi-Åhlin · From: Sweden

What I stated in the post above has a lot to do with
the "Cabinet drop" discussion,also...McUtsi

Joseph Barcus · From: Volga West Virginia

I was playing one night and was using tempered tuning, sit beside the lead guy and for the first hour something kept sounding off, I would check my tuning it was right on, he would check his and he would be right on as well, about 30 min into the first hour I just went 440 on everything and that fixed the problem. but yet I have sit beside of other players and the tempered worked fine. still was a odd night, I tune 440 now and have learned to work with issues as they come by all depends whos sitting beside you lol my 3 cents worth
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Gary Steele · From: Columbus, Ohio, USA

Quick response, And thanks so far. Some people are a little different i think as to what note they start with and then what note they tune other strings to. I think it is Ricky Davis that starts out with his A note to 440. This way that he tunes may very well be as good as any. Ricky, Do you still tune this way???
Thanks again, Keep em coming. Let us know step by step how some of you tune.

Thanks, Gary

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Gary; I do. But you have to read the explaination below.

Bob Cox · From: Buckeye State

I tune like Ricky,Pedals down E 140 let off tune to your automatically new raised E.The pre sets in those tuners will get you out in left field when playing with a band.One can take what you get this way and program it in your tuner then providing you don,t change string sizes or brands.That tune program then will work only for your guitar.

Robert Leaman · From: Murphy, North Carolina, USA

I started playing steel when a tuner was unknown at least anything that was remotely available to an average musician. The only devices available were tuning forks. I carried an "A" and a "C". If a tuning fork is held over a guitar pickup, the tuning fork note is heard through the amplifier. Tuning forks produce only sine waves, that is without any harmonics. I still have the forks but now I use a tuner. I tune the E9th neck with the high "E" string and the remainder are tuned by ear to the "E" string. I tune the C6th neck with a "C" from the tuner and the remainder are tuned by ear to the "C" string. Both necks have the pedals tuned to their respective necks and their respective "E" or "C" strings. Years ago, I tuned the entire band to the steel by request and we sounded good.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I tune my "E" so it's in tune with the guitar player's "E". If there's no guitar, I'll tune that "E" with whatever other instrument is there. I consider the 4th and 5th strings probably my most played strings, so I use them as my reference. I tune for no beats, or barely noticeable beats (JI). The intervals that sound "out" I have to avoid, or tweak the bar to get them in. My feeling is this: I'd rather have 75% of my notes "in", "dead on", than have all of them "close". Therefore, I personally avoid tuning ET. Some players can tune ET and sound fine. But, there's some very well-known players who tune and play using ET, and I can't stand to listen to them for very long. Too many beats just drive me up a wall, and what is "okay" for them just doesn't work for me.

Now, the caveat, and it's a BIG one - How you tune isn't as important as how you sound when you play, meaning that the whole idea is to sound in-tune when you're playing. You have to sound both in tune with yourself, and in tune with the band.

Nothing else matters!

Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

Ricky is right on.

The number 440 refers to the frequency (Hz) of the A note above middle C on a piano. That is a standard. (I don't know about keyboards)

To be technically correct there is only one note that is 440 Hz. It is the A above middle C.

When we say we tune 440, we are talking about Equal temperament centered around the standard 440 Hz.

I usually check the piano with my Peterson to see where A is. Most often, it is not on 440. So I adjust my tuner to the piano. I alert the rest of the band during setup so we all use the same standard.

A piano is not tuned ET either. The mid octave is right on ET, and the rest of the piano is "stretch tempered" . The higher notes are progressively tuned sharp. The low notes are progressively tuned flat. When tuning to the piano, use the mid octave.

Just FYI.

R2

Gary Steele · From: Columbus, Ohio, USA

Ron, Are you the one that worked at the Emmons factory when i came thru awhile back.
Thanks,
Gary Steele

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Read Ricky Davis's post above again and again until you understand it. Then do it. You must learn to tune by ear. Different steels tune out differently.

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

I pretty much tune to what a good tuner says, more Equal Temperment than 'Beatless' like the other instruments.

Two good links here.. or here cover the most that I think has been written for Pedal Steel "tunings" including some good input from Buddy Emmons, Paul Franklin, and some attempts to rewrite history by some dork in Philly...

Whatever irregularities you encounter with your particular rig, or band, such as a chronically sharp tele, or an out of tune piano can and should be specifically addressed as they come up.

Mostly it's a game of averages, memorising your particular 'sweet spots', and doing the rest by how you play..

Smile

EJL

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Whether you are in tune or not when you play depends a lot more on your left hand, than it does on how you tune the guitar. An electronic tuner, tuning fork or harmonic method just gets the instrument into the ballpark. Your left hand is what actually makes you in or out of tune.
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Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

Gary,
No that was not me.

R2

David Doggett · Posted 15 Jan 2009 10:22 pm

I'm the dork from Philly. Here's how I tune 10-string E9 by ear. I agree with b0b to a point. But if your instrument is seriously out of tune, there is only so much you can correct with your left hand, and what about when you play open at the nut?

1. Take the root note of the tuning, E (strings 4 and 8 on E9), and tune that note alone to a tuning reference (tuning fork, electronic tuner, keyboard). I use 441 Hz as the reference for my Es. Cabinet drop then puts my As about 439 with the A and B pedals down. I call that splitting the difference.
2. Now play an E chord on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, and tune all the strings so that chord sounds nice to your ears, without changing the Es on strings 4 and 8.
3. Play a B chord on strings 1, 2, 5, 7. String 5 is the reference. You have already tuned it in the previous step, so do not change it. Tune the other strings so they make a nice chord with string 5.
4. There are multiple ways to tune string 9, but the simplest is to play an E chord on strings 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, and tune string 9 so it sounds nice as the 7th of the E7 chord. Or, make a Bm chord with strings 7, 9, and 10. Tune string 9 so it sounds good as the minor 3rd of that chord.
5. Press the A and B pedals to make an A chord on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10. Strings 4 and 8 are unaffected by those pedals, and have already been established as your reference strings, so do not change them. Tune the pedal stops on the other strings to make a nice sounding A chord with the unchanged strings 4 and 8.
6. Press pedals B and C to make an F#m chord on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. Tune the C pedal stops on strings 4 and 5 to sound nice with that chord, and do not change strings 3, 6, 7.
7. If you have an F lever (raises the Es ½ step), activate it with the A pedal to make a C# chord on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10. Tune the F lever stops on strings 4 and 8 to sound nice with that chord without changing any other strings or stops.
8. If you have an E lower lever (lowers the Es ½ step), activate it to make a G#m chord on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10. Tune the stops on strings 4 and 8 so that chord sounds nice, without changing any other strings or stops.
9. Any other pedal or lever stops are tuned by the above principles. Find the most common chord the change is part of, and tune the stops to that chord without changing any other strings or stops.

Normally, you will only have to go through the first 4 steps to tune your open strings. The pedal and lever stops on most modern steels are very stable and only have to be tuned occasionally to adjust for minor slippage or string aging.

Mike Poholsky · From: Kansas, USA

Hey Ricky,
I just got done practicing to an A440 tone. Never done that before. Really helped me hear the 7th fret on down. That line of sight thing messes with me. I'll keep trying it. Need to keep the A440 low, it gets annoying. But helpful. Thanks.
Gotta love the Forum! New S#*t has come to light! LOL
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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Like Dave above, I tune open E's to 441, and 441 across, then fine tune by ear.

I do not believe there is any one right or wrong method, work with a few, find the one that best suits you and stick with it. I use an under $10 crummy tuner, it works perfect to tune strait up 441(for the E's) then I don't need it anymore.

The trick is to get your PEDS down OPEN A position in tune to A or as close as possible. That's what my entire intent is when I tune.

There is no law that says you have to place the bar exactly on the correct fret market going up the fretboard, this is a fretless Instrument, think fretless Bass Player !

Bob above mentions the left hand as being a primary culprit for not playing in tune, and he is correct. A fretless Instrument requires some pretty good hearing and brain computing going on , non stop.

tp

Ulric Utsi-Åhlin · From: Sweden

Yes b0b,the bar-hand is the "trickery" I was refer-
ring to,in combination w/ good choices,like avoiding
certain positions & inversions... "real time"
tempering of notes(if You sharpen certain notes/
chords of a descending run it sounds much more "in
tune",that´s the way our brains work) etc etc...and
remember,even the slightest inaccuracy in bar place-
ment introduces an off-tune reading that,by far,over-
rides the good effects of our tempered tuning...just
a reminder of where the serious work takes place.
McUtsi

Dustin Rigsby · From: Parts Unknown, Ohio

Gary Steele · From: Columbus, Ohio, USA

Dustin,If you do a search i'd say tuning is talked about more or as much as anything. I really believe if most people that tunes the whole steel with a tuner and then i touch it up by ear, I'm sure you will like what you hear a lot more. It seems like you hardly ever run into an average musician that really cares about tuning. Most seem to just put it on a tuner and play. It gets ya buy but its really nice not to hear all those overtone or screaming notes is what it sounds like to me. I'm not gonna ask how many people has fell out with other people because they didnt want to tune and could care less. I dont complain to be hard i just gotta be real close with the band. Maybe noone else has ever had this problem, LOL I'm only kidding, I know this is a major issue. I'd say some bands probably tell people before they hire them that everyone must tune as close as we can get. This is still opinions. I'm not the best musician but i really like to be in tune.
Thanks for your input.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

An observation:

The people who have the hardest time playing in tune are those who can't hold the bar straight. The people who sound the most in tune are those who first learned to use bar slants on a non-pedal steel.

I think this is because you learn to control the bar better with the bar slants techniques. The muscles in the hand must adjust the bar position to be straight across the strings whether you are at the 1st fret or the 23rd. It actually is a small bar slant as you go up the neck - the same "muscle memory" comes into play.
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