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Topic: How many of you concentrate onlyon learning LICKS and stuff? |
Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 5 Jan 2009 5:02 pm |
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Is learning and playing SOMEONE ELSE's 'licks' and 'phrases' and then stringing them all together, in one song after another, really what it's all about?
How many of you have stepped inside a club to hear some exciting new steel guitar player only to discover he's commited to playing that same tired old Jeff Newman speed picking E9th run from way up to way down low, in virtually every verse of every song performed during the evening?
We've all attempted to do that, but primarily to learn how it was done and to improve our SPEED, but NOT as a habitual, single minded accomplishment.
That method is really not a fast track to steel guitar playing success, or IS IT? |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 5 Jan 2009 7:31 pm
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Learn the neck and know your scales - after that, engage the brain.
Any other method isn't music-making.
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 5 Jan 2009 7:51 pm Re: How many of you concentrate onlyon learning LICKS and st
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Of course, when we are beginners, we learn by copying. If we are lucky, we can progress to the point where we can contribute something distinctive and personal. On the other hand, a musician whom I respect often reminds my that "improvisation is the spontaneous regurgitation of previously digested material." So I try to digest as much material as possible. I suspect it is best to digest stuff that was written for logical, artistic, musical reasons rather than what happens to lie in a convenient place on the steel guitar.
| Ray Montee wrote: |
| ...that same tired old Jeff Newman speed picking E9th run from way up to way down low, |
This sounds like undigested material to me. What is this run and where can I hear it? |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 5 Jan 2009 7:58 pm
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Maybe it's a question of the "middle way", as in so many things.
I have not so much refused to learn "licks" as simply and almost unconsciously ignored that aspect.
I've sought instead to learn the "topography" of the instrument, the chords, chord relationships, and chord/melody note(s) relationships.
I feel in many ways that approach has served me well, but if I went out on a call to do a mainstream traditional country gig, and they looked at me to do an intro for "Way to Survive", I might well not fulfill their expectations, though I can safely say what I played would fit the chord structure, and wouldn't be actually wrong or "weird", just not necessarily following the expected conventions.
And for "success" in the commercial sense it would be good sometimes to have the expected conventions at one's command, if needed. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 6 Jan 2009 9:48 am
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My initial reply was, perhaps, a little brusque.
One method of learning steel guitar is, undoubtedly, to try and replicate something you've heard on a recording. When one's ear becomes more finely tuned, one is able to hear where on the neck a phrase is being played. That process will add to one's knowledge of the tuning and layout of the steel.
But merely stringing together a series of licks one has learned by rote and calling it 'playing' is a pretty dull pursuit.
'Earnest' is correct, of course - as beginners we copy; his reference to 'undigested' material (what I'd call 'by rote') is spot on.
Brint - I'm in your corner, too. I haven't sat and studied the country music catalogue to the point where I have all the intros down pat, but I can give them something that'll work....
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Nathan Golub
From:
Durham, NC
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Posted 6 Jan 2009 11:01 am
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| I like learning other people's licks and solos. They never really turn out exactly the same when I play them anyway. It seems to me that learning anything new on the steel will only help someone get better. |
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Chris Buchanan
From:
Macomb, IL
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Posted 6 Jan 2009 11:03 am
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Scales, scales, scales. Followed by chords and and then the occasional riff. After playing guitar for so long I already have a feel and an idea of what I want to sound like on steel. I'm learning where and how everything fits to do that.
I don't think there's anything wrong with devoting your life to playing someone elses' style, if that's what floats your boat. If you want to make a living playing, you'd have an advantage. Uniqueness has its place too. Music is a creative medium. Ultimately we're all works in progress and end up somewhere in the middle.
Defining success is too tricky for me. I don't know how you can apply any kind of standard, much less decide what that standard is. It has to be subjective. Frankly, I'd say anybody with a gig is pretty successful to me.
_________________
GFI Ultra S-10, Nashville 112, stuff. |
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Nathan Golub
From:
Durham, NC
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Posted 6 Jan 2009 11:17 am
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| Oops, I shoulda read the title of the thread closer… only learning other people's licks sounds like you'd miss out on the fun of making up your own stuff. But if it floats someone's boat then go for it. |
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Gordon Hartin
From:
Durham, NC
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Posted 6 Jan 2009 8:43 pm
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Hi Ray,
I think the way you stated the subject of this post "How many of you concentrate only on learning LICKS and stuff?" gets a bit confusing because of "and stuff" line tagged onto the end. Because "and stuff" could mean anything like scales, rhythms, motifs....
I'm sure everyone out there has learned a few licks at some point. Some players might be content with playing Newman, Mooney, Emmons...licks etc...
I think the best advice is that if you are learning licks, try to take the time to see where the lick came from. Is it just walking up the scale in 3rds from the 4 chord 1 chord? If it is, then there are many other places to play the lick that can improve your overall knowledge of the fretboard. Or take the lick and walk it through a few modes of the scale and see how it sounds. |
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Jeff Hyman
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 6 Jan 2009 9:13 pm
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| The answer to your question will change over time and experience and musical talent. When its all said and done, its about feel, touch and tone IMHO. |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 6 Jan 2009 10:12 pm
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How many of us go out and hear somebody playing with the idea of coming back home knowing that we are somehwow "better"?
How many of us realise that if it were true, then we wouldn't be able to go out and hear them because we would be playing?
How many of us life long lives in constant search of what is really supposed to be inside of us?
Who knows?
I'm not playing this weekend, maybe I can go out and find somebody I can feel better than..
EJL |
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Glen Derksen
From:
Alberta, Canada
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Posted 6 Jan 2009 10:25 pm
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| Even as a beginner, I can figure out how to play a complete song, hardly knowing what I'm doing. I know it sounds unbelievable, but how does one explain that phenomena? Of course that doesn't mean that I shouldn't learn all my scales and chords inside and out, and what pedals and levers do what...I intend to learn it all. |
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Ulric Utsi-Åhlin
From:
Sweden
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Posted 7 Jan 2009 2:46 am Licks,riffs,fill-ins,pretzels...
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I learned to read/write music as a kid by means of
formal piano lessons,so when I got started on PSG it
was all about relating the music theory to this great
instrument,instead of learning licks & fills ; this
method is time-consuming,and today I would recommend
this theory-based method IN COMBINATION w/ good
method books to a new player ; my "all-encompassing"
method added years to my wood-shedding phase ; having
said that...I don´t regret a thing...it was right for
me and it provided me with a good understanding of the instrument,in theory AND practice...theory + lots
of practicing equals...a pragmatic mind-set.McUtsi |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 7 Jan 2009 2:49 am
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I play the song and grab a few licks from the cranial region, the ones that I can remember that I know ! Considering that most of us weekend players are not playing everyday in a studio or on tour doing multiple shows each week, I think we are lucky to know a bag full of licks and execute them well.
Learning phrases that are on records are a big part of what I do, mostly to see where they come from in perhaps two different positions. It's amazing what comes from that exercise. Variations, new phrases, a new understanding.
I think it would be most difficult for any player to play a 4 hour gig and not repeat a phrase or three. If we perhaps play similar phrases that we learned from the original tunes, that actually assists in playing a little bit different throughout the 4 hour gig. If you run out of things to play you can always revert to the signature lines from the records, that is, if you know them !
I play the song, if a lick gets repeated they can stop dancing if they so choose.
If the singer tells me I am playing the same licks I'll just tell him he's singing the same words !
Ha!
tp |
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Greg Wisecup
From:
Troy, Ohio
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Posted 8 Jan 2009 7:44 am
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This topic is popular.....
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=1132370&highlight=#1132370
My opinion; maybe not so popular but it still holds true. Licks, intros, turnarounds, endings,ect make songs identifiable. When I hear Swingin Doors or A way to Survive, I don't want to hear your "interpretation" or your "special twist" on it. I want to be able to identify the song by the intro or licks that made that song what it is! Would you play "Look at Us" any other way (or close to it) than the way JH did it?????
_________________
Derby SD-10 4&5 Black!(duh)/
Derby D-10/Steelers Choice/
Goodrich 120/ 2- Katana Boss 100's
/Nashville 400
RV-3/ Zoom MS-50G
As long as I'm down in the mix I'm Fantastic! |
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Barry Blackwood
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Posted 8 Jan 2009 8:08 am
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| Greg, I agree. Period. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 8 Jan 2009 8:27 am
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I can't agree, Greg. I bet Buddy Emmons could come up with something I'd want to hear - I wouldn't be surprised if you could, too, and I have ideas of my own.
IF I were accompanying the artist associated with the song, I'd feel an obligation to get as close as I could - otherwise, no. Of course, the band-leader in a cover-band can decide that's what he wants - he's paying me - so I'd do it, but it's more fun coming up with something else.
My opinion, of course, but I see your point as well.
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Scott Hiestand
From:
MA, U.S.A
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Posted 8 Jan 2009 10:37 am
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| Greg Wisecup wrote: |
| My opinion; maybe not so popular but it still holds true. Licks, intros, turnarounds, endings,ect make songs identifiable. When I hear Swingin Doors or A way to Survive, I don't want to hear your "interpretation" or your "special twist" on it. I want to be able to identify the song by the intro or licks that made that song what it is! Would you play "Look at Us" any other way (or close to it) than the way JH did it????? |
Of course this is all opinion, there is no "right" answer, but I agree with Greg. Some songs just beg to be played like the original because of a very identifiable lick/intro/solo/whatever. Of course that assumes if there is an audience, that they would recognize these parts and I fully realize that is often a "generous" assumption. So on those songs with a well known steel "hook", the player can make these choices: One, he can effectively say "I will play my own musical interpretation of this passage", or he can say "I will pay homage to the player who made this song what it is" and try and copy the part. And of course you can do a little of both - change a note or phrase but still keep it "recognizable". I know many think copying as "unoriginal" or "unmusical". Maybe true if that's ALL you did, but there are plenty of places to improvise in a song. Just my 2 cents. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 8 Jan 2009 10:47 am
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Good points, Scott.
I always felt that I wanted to pay tribute to James Burton's stunning Telecaster solo in Rick Nelson's 'Hello Marylou', and, to this day, I'll always quote the first eight measures. After that, I'll go where I feel it wants to.
".... that assumes if there is an audience, that they would recognize these parts..."
Quite! I think I do it for the other musicians rather than the crowd. I do miss the days when a pop record usually featured 12 or 16 measures of guitar solo - and it wasn't for DJs to talk over, either!
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Les Anderson
From:
The Great White North
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Posted 8 Jan 2009 10:47 am
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I don't look for answers in this question. I love to play melodies as well as sitting their playing chords while backing up someone else.
I've played bass guitar, bass & chord chromatic harmonica for more than 50 years; however, though one can play melodies on these instruments, the main reason I bought my steel was so I could play a full range of melodies. |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 8 Jan 2009 10:57 am
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| Roger Rettig wrote: |
Good points, Scott.
I always felt that I wanted to pay tribute to James Burton's stunning Telecaster solo in Rick Nelson's 'Hello Marylou', and, to this day, I'll always quote the first eight measures. After that, I'll go where I feel it wants to.
".... that assumes if there is an audience, that they would recognize these parts..."
Quite! I think I do it for the other musicians rather than the crowd. I do miss the days when a pop record usually featured 12 or 16 measures of guitar solo - and it wasn't for DJs to talk over, either! |
I'm with you, Roger--except I quote, to the best of my ability, the whole "Hello Mary Lou" solo! I think bars 11-16 are my favorite part!
Some instrumental parts, like that one, seem to me so perfectly fit that they are integral to the song. A lot of Beatles songs have the same character. In steel, things like the Emmons intro to "Night Life", or Lloyd's work on "You've Got a Lover". Anything different just wouldn't be as good! (Though I'd love to prove that wrong, or have someone else do it!) |
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Hook Moore
From:
South Charleston,West Virginia
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Posted 8 Jan 2009 11:48 am
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I do still learn someone else licks sometimes but more from horn players, Sax, piano players etc.. I just like to have lots of ways to go from point A to point B.
Hook
_________________
http://twitter.com/hook_moore
www.facebook.com/hook.moore
Blaine Moore |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 8 Jan 2009 1:11 pm
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Brint said:
" I think bars 11-16 are my favorite part!"
Mine too!!!! And I've found some tricks with my B-bender that I get goose-bumps from - those changes are an absolute gift, and I can't resist trying to 'out-James' James... 
Of course, I never have, but it's a thrill to try!
If you haven't already done so, go over to 'Steel Players' and listen to the Ray Price 'Night Life' that Tommy White has posted on the 'Buddy Emmons' thread - it's nothing to do with this thread, but I just want everyone to hear it!!!!!!!! 
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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