The Steel Guitar Forum

This is my first post here after browsing for a few weeks. I saw Ed Littlefield perform recently with his band Marley's Ghost, and it inspired me to take up the pedal steel. Step one of course is to figure out what kind of instrument to get. I've learned a lot from searching and browsing in this forum, but I still have quite a few questions.

My situation is a little bit unusual, so let me give you some background first. I live on a small island in the northwest corner of Washington state. It's hard to shop for things here, and even harder to sell used items. So I'd like my first pedal steel to be something I'll still be satisfied with 5 years from now. I'll probably buy a new instrument, simply because I don't know enough yet to figure out whether a used steel guitar is any good or not.

My question is, would it be insane to start out with a U-12 guitar instead of, say, an S-10 E9 guitar? I love the country style that an E9 can play, but I also really like the blues and jazzier styles. I'm a pretty decent amateur player on the 6-string guitar (both fingerstyle acoustic and electric with a flat pick), electric bass, and piano, and I have a good ear and a good understanding of chords and their relationships. Living on an island, I'm going to have to teach myself. I'm good at that, except that I haven't been able to find any instructional materials for learning to play the U-12 setup.

So, what do you think? Is it reasonable to start out on a U-12 from the very beginning?

Thanks,
John

John, my advice would be to get a Uni 12, that way you will have the best of two worlds, e9th and b6th all on one neck.. less weight , no need to switch necks, less strings to buy, if you can get a keyless ,shorter body,
I wish I had that option many years ago,as for instructional materials try Joe Wright

,John Roche
http://pedalsteel.com/joe[url][/url]

Things to consider
You're a guitarist. The lowest string on a 10 string E9 neck is the 2nd fret on the 5th string. Doesn't work for me. The range just doesn't cut it.

On a U12, C6 (or B6) is just a position of E9; E9 is just a position of C6 / B6. They interrelate. Very usefully, I might add. Press P6 on a C6 neck -- it gives you F9 (essentially the E9 tuning 1/2 step higher) -- but from that position you can't use the A and B pedals or any of the E9 knee levers. Hit E to D# on a 10 string -- it gives you much of the C6 pedal steel tuning -- but none of the pedal or lever changes on C6 are available. On a U12 it's all there ALL THE TIME.

With a U12 you have the open B6 tuning by pressing a lever. You can learn the nonpedal C6 stylings from any C6 tab -- pedal or nonpedal. In fact, ANY PEDAL STEEL TAB OR INSTRUCTIONAL MATERIAL APPLIES EQUALLY WELL TO THE U12.

I had a single 10 MSA in 1974 for about six months. I bought a D12 and very soon converted it to an SD12 (removed the C6 neck) and never looked back. If you're a guitarist like me (I did everything from rock to fancy fingerstyle stuff) you'll miss the low chord voicings.

Good luck. Check out my website -- there's a lot of stuff there.
http://www.larrybell.org

Drop me an EMail is you want to discuss further.
larry@larrybell.org

John Polstra wrote:So I'd like my first pedal steel to be something I'll still be satisfied with 5 years from now.

I think it is impossible to know what instrument you will want after you've been playing 5 years. So you might be better off getting a good single 10 string because they are easier to buy and sell.

U-12 guitar instead of, say, an S-10 E9 guitar?

There are other options too. Extended E9 works best for me.

It wouldn't be insane to start on a U12, and if that is where you will end up, then you might as well start on that. It is slightly more complicated because of the extra strings. But in E9 mode they are just additional strings of a straight E chord added at the bottom. You will have to adapt E9 instruction to the fact that the normal 9th string D is on a lever on U12, an easy adaptation, and it's one of the lesser used strings, especially in beginner material. The top 8 strings, where most of the action is, are identical on 10-string E9 and U12.

In the B6 mode, the bottom 9 strings are identical to the bottom 9 strings of C6 (but a half-step lower). You will have to adapt to playing C6 tabs a fret higher to be in the same key. Some C6 players have a G on top, others have a D. On U12 you have the equivalent of both, plus an additional high 6th interval.

If you know some music, you will have no problems with this. But, pedal steel in any form is a very difficult instrument to learn on ones own. It really, really helps to take a few hands-on lessons from someone. It will save you many hours of puzzlement and flailing.

Jeff Newman made some of the best instruction material for beginners for both E9 and C6 (he's deceased but his wife still sells his material at Jeffran Music). He also has some beginner stuff for U12, but unfortunately it is aimed at former 10-string players learning to adapt to U12. But it will still be useful to you.

If you are interested in styles other than standard country, U12 is the most versatile single neck for all styles. The slight additional difficulty at the beginning will pay off later with the greater simplicity of having everything on a single neck.

For whatever it's worth, I started off on a U-12, and have never played anything else. It seems to have worked out for me.

I rarely use the B6 side of the tuning, but have changes on the bass strings of the U-12 for all the E9 chords, and the more I play, the more I find them to be invaluable.

I started playing pedal steel on a U-12 Serria I purchased from Bill Stroud. I have a sho-bud LDG as well. 10str with 3p/4k. I play both guitars but the u-12 is my guitar of choice because of the extended range and the e9/b6 tunings. WHen I do play the 10str I notice just how much I miss the b6 changes. Having all those pedals and levers don't mean you have to learn to use them in two weeks, but they are there for you when you get ready.
Go with the U-12, you won't be sorry in a few years.
Just my opinion.

DW

My first PSG was an MSA U12. 8 and 5. One of the first group of Millenium Steel guitars.

My background was rock, jazz, Strat and Stringmaster T3. I was comfortable with the 6th tunings.

http://www.b0b.com/infoedu/future1.htm

This article helped me decide.

Hi, I purchased a new U-12 in June and received the guitar in Oct. I too have a good understanding of music, I believe. I researched the forum for many months before I decided which one to buy. It is a big investment, especially if you have never had the luck to sit down and try any psg. Reese Anderson's views and reading the pedal steel mags that I bought here, were one reason I bought the uni. The other is, I asked someone that I believe is a great player what he thought. I gave him my musical ability bio, told him a little about myself, described why I wanted to play and asked his opinion. His opinion was not bias and he was very kind to help me, much like many of the players here. I to live in a secluded part of the world. Joe Wright is teaching over the net now, so check his website out. I have taken a lesson from him and I am going to continue. Also Joe Wright and Jeff Nueman's universal videos explain what you can do on a universal. I have come to the conclusion that if you have never played a uni it is hard to have a opinion on them. I have no opinion on a double neck because I have never had the chance to try one. So cannot comment . As for me I am very satisfied and it has opened up a new chapter in music for me. Only my opinion and I am a green psg player. Take care, Roger

John P...
Welcome to the wonderful world of PSG. I thought I had broken the habit 15 years ago (hey, that sounds like a good song title...) but here I am, back at it again. I am also a long time pick and/or fingerstyle guitar player, with wide ranging musical tastes. When I started my quest for a comeback axe, I was thinking D10, until I read Reece A's article which Ron Randall refers to in his post.I found a great deal on a Carter U12 which now sits in my music space; my third U12. Dave D. & Larry B. are both right on as usual... but if you should want to try Ext E9 as some fine players do it's no big deal to make the switch on a modern U12.As far as instructional material is concerned,well there is so much available now it is almost scary.Hooray for the Internet! My experience has been that the hardest part to learn is BLOCKING. This is where Newman & Wright differ the most; Jeff is old school , 2 pick,palm blocking. Wright goes with 3 picks and (mostly) pick blocking,which I had never heard of way back when. Now I do both. To me, it seems that pick blocking is a little easier to learn,but maybe that's just me.
Any way, to wrap it all up, IMHO, it ain't insane to start out on a U12, but this beast just might drive you round the bend...
Happy pickin...CR.

I don't think it's insane at all to start on U-12. You've already gotten good advice here, IMO. I agree with Earnest that it's usually easier to sell an S-10 or D-10 than a comparable U-12, but sometimes one can pick up a bargain U-12 and nullify the difference.

Overall, I don't think it matters all that much where you start, and also agree that it's hard to know with certainty how one will view this stuff 5 years in. I've moved around a bit, and after around 10 years have both D-10s and U-12s.

Think also about ergonomics - how you fit under the guitar, ability to reach the knee levers, and so on. I'm real tall and found real narrow S-10s don't work for me at all. Single-and-a-half or double bodies for me, and I have to raise them up using a liftkit. People who are short may find this all turned around, so YMMV on this. The point is that ergonomics needs to be considered - it's a very physical instrument.

Thanks, everybody! Your replies have been incredibly helpful. I've been looking around at the websites you pointed me to and have learned a lot from them. I'm more confident now that U-12 is the way I want to go. Earnest, the points you made were good ones, and they caused me to do a lot of thinking. In the end I decided I didn't want to be thinking about reselling the instrument before I even bought it.

Thanks again,
John

I also started on a U-12, and taught myself, having a musical background...and still play an MSA single 12. Some other thoughts in addition to those already expressed here:

I would strongly suggest investing in both Winnie Winston and DeWitt Scott's method books: Winnie's is solidly on the 10 string E9 (and a little dated to be sure, but well worth reading). Scotty's also gets into a lot on the 10 string E9 and includes discussions on the B6 tuning and the use of the D lever (the knee that drops you into C6 land). Scotty's is great for basics.

Jeffran does sell a book on U-12 and it is also worth having, and exclusively discusses the B6 setup, as Jeff states/stated that many other books already cover the E9, he also uses the bottom two strings so you start to understand their use.

With those three materials, time, patience and practice, the U-12 should be fine. Personally, I always believe starting on a professional instrument as they are more fun to play and you don't feel limited (I would be sure to get at least 7 pedals and four knees, even if you don't use them all at first).

And remember! Music is about having fun.

Anthony

The best thing about getting a U12 over a S10 is that you can take 2 strings off the 12 string, as well as take the B6th pedals off to make a 10 string, but you can't make a 12 string out of a 10 string.

These guitars are not that hard to learn to adjust setups on (you can always ask for help here), and if you ever decide U12 is too much, you can change it to an E9th or extended E9th and even have parts to spare to try other stuff.

That is what I did and I'm glad.

Good luck, and whatever version you choose, you'll still have tons of fun playing this great instrument, no matter what setup or how many strings.

I would start with an S10 to get going and see how your playing develops. I tried out a U12 very early on. I found that although it looked good on paper as I became a better player it no longer worked for me. Turned out to be a waste of time and money in my case.

Jacek Jakubek wrote:The best thing about getting a U12 over a S10 is that you can take 2 strings off the 12 string, as well as take the B6th pedals off to make a 10 string,

I thought the same thing in the beginning, but I never did.

John go for the U-12,sounds like you are a good musician! Then you will have what you really want and won't have to change horses in the middle of the stream!

I just thought I'd follow up and let you know that I found a used Sierra U-12 and received it yesterday. So far, it's working out great and I'm having a blast! While waiting for an instrument I'd been studying the DeWitt Scott and Winnie Winston books that were recommended here, and thinking a lot about how everything worked. Once I got the guitar, I was able to make some pleasant noises with it surprisingly quickly. Using the E9 books with the U-12 hasn't been a problem at all. Strings 1-8 are identical, my string 9 is the same as the E9's string 10, and the beginner books don't use the E9 string 9 much. After playing around most of the afternoon yesterday, I was able to play the most important chords for country music -- namely, the I, IV, V7, ii, iii, and vi. I've got them to the point now where I can play chords along with a slow ballad on the CD player. I'm only using the A, B, and C pedals and the E-lowering knee lever at this point, but it's nice to know the B6 stuff will be there when I'm ready for it.

Needless to say, I've got months of practicing ahead of me before I'll be even minimally competent on the instrument. But I'm amazed at how quickly the process became fun.

Many thanks to all of you for your helpful advice and encouragement!

John

John,After spending some time with Dan Tyack last weekend in Phoenix he's got a really great 10 string tuning on his guitar that you might want to take a look at.Dan lives in Olympia?Not sure how far away from you but you might want to see him play if you are close by.Stu

I was a semi-pro, working, 6 stringer. I bought an old D10, and then a Modern Sd10. All the while I wanted a 12 string. A few "grand"later, I still do, Now that I know my way around a 10 string,I wish I'd been less intimidated and bought the UNI at the beginning !
Rick