The Steel Guitar Forum

Posted: **23 Dec 2008 2:12 pm**

I was surprised to read this article about the Pro Players and thier preferred choice for Weissenborn Pickup.

"For amplification and recording, almost all the players interviewed use the Sunrise soundhole pickup (Sunrise Pickup Systems, 8101 Orion Ave. #19, Van Nuys, CA 91406). Much of the Sunrise's mystique follows David Lindley's sound and his declaration, "It's got magic stuff in it!" Manufacturer Jim Kaufman identifies the Sunrise's "magic stuff" as its quick response, sonic imaging, pole pieces that make an audible difference when adjusted, and ability to move with the guitar's top."

I've read a lot about the K&K Pure Western and the McIntyre Feather, but haven't seen much on the Sunrise for Weissenborn. I'm not sure, but I think Rob Anderlik uses one. At least it looks like a Sunrise Soundhole Pickup I saw on one of his Weissenborns on his website.

So what do you think? It sure would be a simple install (I think).

Posted: **23 Dec 2008 2:56 pm**

I have a Sunrise on my Superior Weissenborn.
I also have a Baggs mounted inside the guitar under the bridge. I keep the two signals separate via a stereo cable to a Marshall acoustic amp and then adjust each signal to my liking. Great sound!

Posted: **24 Dec 2008 12:50 am**

My experience is with original Weissenborns which have soundholes narrower than Sunrise's "wingspans." Sunrises are apparently made to slide in place (on nost guitars) with both lower jaws loosened. Weissenborns don't have enough leeway to let us do things the easy way. No major problem (although a little finesse is required): just remove one of the lower plastic-piece "jaws" that clamp the pickup to the soundboard. The pickup then slides into place. You need to deftly reach in and under to engage the center threaded hole on the "lower jaw" and tighten the screw. (I use a wad of tape on my finger to keep the plastic piece from falling off.)

More radically with the Dean Markley ProMag and ZH-7 pickups, I've had to file/round off the two corners of one side to get them into place in a W. soundhole. So t'ings c'd be woise.

To me, David Lindley (and Steve Fishell) defined the amplified Weissenborn sound via the Sunrise. It appears that other manufacturers are making worthy and complimentary pickups and systems, but as an amateur closet player, it's not a burning pursuit with me.

Posted: **24 Dec 2008 8:53 am**

I put a K&K mini in my Burgin because I refused to saw off the little detail that Paddy puts on the end of his end of his fretboard for a Sunrise to fit. Mr.Dave I think gets away with it. I read somewhere about Paddy lamenting him cutting it off
for that pick-up to fit on his Burgins.
The K&K sounds fantastic in it and it's invisible.

Posted: **24 Dec 2008 11:00 am**

I'm a little surprised that no one has tried a Highlander. I love the warmth of their iP-1 in my old wooden body squareneck, and upgrading to the iP-2 gives you the option of adding a 2nd transducer or internal condensor to the mix.

I'd imagine that this would be an ideal candidate for installation in a Weiss...

Posted: **24 Dec 2008 1:17 pm**

The K&K Pure Western Mini is great for natural sound amplification. Very warm, and so much bass, which is often hard to pick up in satisfying amounts with a mic (at least with an SM57). I have it in my Oahu and in both my Weissenborns (a Lazy River and a Burgin baritone - Paddy Burgin was "blown away" with the sound when he tried it after installing it).

The Sunrise, which I haven't personally tried, seems to me to always sound very similar in different instruments - i.e., you get more character from the pickup than from your instrument in the amplified sound. Big name players who use it (David Lindley, Ben Harper) seem to play through amps and/or use overdriven sound on the Weissenborn at times, rather than going for an acoustic sound.

Here are some sound examples of my Weissenborns amplified using the K&K pickup through a K&K Pure preamp:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMvoG0CqgO8
(In a band setting, with the live sound coming out of the PA recorded by the camera mic. At 2:03-2:16 is a good spot to hear only my Weissenborn.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTrMRa9iNUA
(The "dry" pickup signal recorded through the mixing desk - it sounded richer through the PA speakers).

I usually roll off the mid completely and the treble quite a bit on the preamp. The best sound is of course achieved when combining the K&K with a microphone, but for no-hassle good live sound, just plugging in the guitar works very well.

I bought all my K&K pickups for about $65-$70 each on eBay, where K&K sell their "cosmetic seconds". So they not only sound great, but are great value too.

I am no sales rep, just a happy customer!

I hope that's to some help!

Cheers,

Fred

Posted: **25 Dec 2008 7:27 pm**

LR BAGGS now has two soundhole pickups that are quality, sound great, and are about half the price of the Sunrise. They are becoming a favorite and they always have them available!

There are two models, one is an active and the other is passive. They are the M1

http://www.lrbaggs.com/html/products/pi ... tive.shtml

http://www.lrbaggs.com/html/products/pi ... tive.shtml

The M1™ is a passive soundhole magnetic pickup that features outstanding body sensitivity with great warmth and presence. Its dual-coil design employs L.R. Baggs' exclusive TriAxial Dynamic Technology to produce clear, rich tones that are resistant to feedback, noise and hum, with string and body sound all in one.

The M1 redefines what is possible from a soundhole pickup and eliminates the tradeoff between ease and performance. It's never been easier to get superior live sound!

Posted: **27 Dec 2008 6:11 am**

I had the good fortune a while back in being able to trade a squire tele for a Superior Weisseborn with Cedar Top Mahogany back and sides I was going to buy the Sunrise for it. But the price for the pick up and the pre amp was about $500. Well good fortune struck again. I got the chance to try the passive M1 LR. Baggs along with the Para Acoustic D.I. pre amp. I got it for about $300 from Spencer sound Stage here in Fresno.
I run it through my pa and I love the natural acoustic sound I can get from it.
I've only seen pictures of the Sunrise, I've never tried one out, I would love to be able to compare them as they are very similar.
Brad do you have any feed back on these two pick ups?
You install a Baggs the same way you do a Sunrise, as Ben accurately described
below. The tape is an excellent ideal Ben. I found cussing loudly helped as well.

Ben Elder wrote:My experience is with original Weissenborns which have soundholes narrower than Sunrise's "wingspans." Sunrises are apparently made to slide in place (on nost guitars) with both lower jaws loosened. Weissenborns don't have enough leeway to let us do things the easy way. No major problem (although a little finesse is required): just remove one of the lower plastic-piece "jaws" that clamp the pickup to the soundboard. The pickup then slides into place. You need to deftly reach in and under to engage the center threaded hole on the "lower jaw" and tighten the screw. (I use a wad of tape on my finger to keep the plastic piece from falling off.)

Happy New Year

Posted: **28 Dec 2008 6:07 am**

Fred ,
I could not agree with you more ....I am taking my I Beams out of my acoustic guitars and replacing them one by one with K&K's ......Much more balanced sounding in tone and volume , and not as boomy or prone to feedback !!.... Jim

Posted: **28 Dec 2008 6:31 pm**

Rickey Mitchell wrote:I had the good fortune a while back in being able to trade a squire tele for a Superior Weisseborn with Cedar Top Mahogany back and sides I was going to buy the Sunrise for it. But the price for the pick up and the pre amp was about $500. Well good fortune struck again. I got the chance to try the passive M1 LR. Baggs along with the Para Acoustic D.I. pre amp. I got it for about $300 from Spencer sound Stage here in Fresno.
I run it through my pa and I love the natural acoustic sound I can get from it.
I've only seen pictures of the Sunrise, I've never tried one out, I would love to be able to compare them as they are very similar.
Brad do you have any feed back on these two pick ups?
You install a Baggs the same way you do a Sunrise, as Ben accurately described
below. The tape is an excellent ideal Ben. I found cussing loudly helped as well.

I have the same set up you do. That Baggs DI premap is killer and the MI is unreal for the price. I use it for my fretless Breedlove acoustic bass as well. No feedback issues the way I am set up. My friend Slade Rivers uses the MI in his huge 30" scale Weiss baritone and loves it. He was using Sunrises until the new improved M1 came out

Posted: **28 Dec 2008 6:59 pm**

Gary Lynch wrote:
Rickey Mitchell wrote:I had the good fortune a while back in being able to trade a squire tele for a Superior Weisseborn with Cedar Top Mahogany back and sides I was going to buy the Sunrise for it. But the price for the pick up and the pre amp was about $500. Well good fortune struck again. I got the chance to try the passive M1 LR. Baggs along with the Para Acoustic D.I. pre amp. I got it for about $300 from Spencer sound Stage here in Fresno.
I run it through my pa and I love the natural acoustic sound I can get from it.
I've only seen pictures of the Sunrise, I've never tried one out, I would love to be able to compare them as they are very similar.
Brad do you have any feed back on these two pick ups?
You install a Baggs the same way you do a Sunrise, as Ben accurately described
below. The tape is an excellent ideal Ben. I found cussing loudly helped as well.

I have the same set up you do. That Baggs DI premap is killer and the MI is unreal for the price. I use it for my fretless Breedlove acoustic bass as well. No feedback issues the way I am set up. My friend Slade Rivers uses the MI in his huge 30" scale Weiss baritone and loves it. He was using Sunrises until the new improved M1 came out
Are you saying it has a natural "Acoustic" sound? The M1 doesn't have any magnetic pickup tone? The only reason I'm asking this is because I listened to eh sound clips on Doug Young Guitar Site.
http://www.allmyfaves.com/
That compares a bunch of acoustic pickups. I found the M1 to have a slight magnetic pickup tone. This wasn't on a Weissenborn style guitar. All the recordings are on various six string acoustic guitars. Check it out for yourself.

Posted: **29 Dec 2008 4:35 am**

Dennis,
I am quite interested in this tone issue also ....Whenever I see a magnetic soundhole pickup, I think D'Armond and picture a tone in my ears of a magnetic pickup tone which is NOTHING at all ( except for pitch ) like the natural tone of something like a K&K or an I-Beam ..... I would want the M1 to sound like a good magnetic in a sense .....Something different to compliment the K&K not to sound just like the K&K .... Magnetic pickups can drive louder volumes also without being so prone to feedback ....Putting the magnetic pickup with the K&K would work very well for louder live gigs where you need more volume, and can also work well for driving effects unit's when a natural tone , along with an effected tone would be desired ......Erv is running a Sunrise along with an I-Beam ....i'm sure he's getting a pretty sweet tone from both pickups ..... I'd like to install an M1 along with a K&K and will post comments when I do .....Jim

Posted: **29 Dec 2008 7:42 am**

I think I'll try the Passive LR Baggs M1 with the Para DI. I have a Musicians Friend account and get have them ship it to me to try. The great thing about Musicians Friend is I have 45 days to try it. If I don't like it, I can ship it back. It won't cost much for shipping.

Before I order the M1, will it fit in the sound hole of the Lazy River Weissenborn? Has anyone tried one in a Lazy River?

Denny

Posted: **29 Dec 2008 9:06 am**

Denny,
Please post your findings .....I think I would try the Active M1 as i hear it's a better pickup .....I don't know for sure why, but when I have a chance to go either passive or active for acoustic pickups , I go with the active one .... When I see your results, the pickups I choose will ALSO go into a Lazy River Weiss .....Thanks again ...Jim

Posted: **29 Dec 2008 2:08 pm**

James Quackenbush wrote:Denny,
Please post your findings .....I think I would try the Active M1 as i hear it's a better pickup .....I don't know for sure why, but when I have a chance to go either passive or active for acoustic pickups , I go with the active one .... When I see your results, the pickups I choose will ALSO go into a Lazy River Weiss .....Thanks again ...Jim

I talked to LR Baggs today. they are the same pickup except for the on board preamp. The Passive M1 with the Para DI will yield better results because you have a better preamp with a Parametric EQ. Much more control over your sound.

The M1 will fit in any sound hole that's 3 1/2" and over. The Lazy River is 3 5/8".

Posted: **29 Dec 2008 2:59 pm**

Denny,
Thanks for the heads up .....Looks like I can save a few bucks then ....I already have a Para DI .....Then again, it would be one less thing in the chain if I got the active pickup ...I could EQ from the board ......Decisions Decisions ..... Jim

Posted: **31 Dec 2008 8:02 am**

Dennis Burling

I have the same set up you do. That Baggs DI premap is killer and the MI is unreal for the price. I use it for my fretless Breedlove acoustic bass as well. No feedback issues the way I am set up. My friend Slade Rivers uses the MI in his huge 30" scale Weiss baritone and loves it. He was using Sunrises until the new improved M1 came out[/quote]

It works on a bass? I'm a bass player as well and I've been thinking about a bass similar to yours as opposed to an upright. How do you like your bass?

Are you saying it has a natural "Acoustic" sound? The M1 doesn't have any magnetic pickup tone? The only reason I'm asking this is because I listened to eh sound clips on Doug Young Guitar Site.
http://www.allmyfaves.com/
That compares a bunch of acoustic pickups. I found the M1 to have a slight magnetic pickup tone. This wasn't on a Weissenborn style guitar. All the recordings are on various six string acoustic guitars. Check it out for yourself.[/quote]

I'm saying I like the acoustic sound I get. If I want a pure acoustic sound I'll simply mike the sound hole.
I read where David Lindley mikes the sound hole as well as using a sunrise pick up. Mr. Dave also said he got the ideal from Leo Kottke.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXiReAlR ... 4&index=18

I remember many years ago when the Lawrance (forgive me if I misspelled the name) acoustic guitar pick up was the one to have. Now the number of quality pick ups on the market are mind-boggling.
Thank God and Brad for a forum like this and the valuable knowledge that is shared by its members.
Happy New Year

Posted: **3 Jan 2009 6:51 am**

If I were to install a K&K Pure Western in a Weissenborn, should I go with the Mini (passive) or the active with the on board preamp? I would think the passive would be better because you wouldn't have the on board preamp in the guitar taking away from the acoustic tone of the guitar. The active would be more convenient.

Is anyone using the Passive K&K with the belt clip preamp like this one http://www.kksound.com/purepreamp.html What do you think? I can't find it now, but I read somewhere that this preamp is a match (impedance) for the passive mini.

By the way, I changed my mind about trying the Baggs M1. I wouldn't want it sitting in the sound hole all the time because I would play 50% of the time unplugged. Something like the K&K sounds like it would better fit what I'm looking for.

Posted: **3 Jan 2009 1:52 pm**

I've got a full size K&K in my dreadnaght acoustic and love it and I'm using the Baggs Para DI. Since I already have the Baggs I plan to put a K&K mini in my weissenborn. If I remember correctly, I read somewhere that the K&K mini was improved to sound like the full size model so the mini is now the favored model. I also was told by Rance White that the mini will fit my Lazy River.

The Steel Guitar Forum

Weissenborn Pickup, Sunrise Soundhole, K&K Western or Mc

Weissenborn Pickup, Sunrise Soundhole, K&K Western or Mc