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Topic: session work / cut and paste. |
Bob Grado
From:
Holmdel, New Jersey
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Posted 15 Dec 2008 5:03 am |
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I just had the good fortune of playing my first "paid" recording gig. I have to say it was definitely a learning experience. One thing that I discovered is what you play in the studio is not necessarily what you hear in the finished product.
The way the session went is the engineer had me play 5 or so passes. When he was ready to mix he "cut" parts from each pass (the ones heliked) and "pasted" them to an open track.
In effect what he was doing was creating his own parts using the "samples" that I provided him.
Wow.. Is this common recording practices?
To be perfectly honest the finished product might resemble my playing but the "feel" I thought I put
on the original track is no longer there.
I don't know.. It's a paying gig.. It's their product.. Let them do with it what they will.
Right? |
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Drew Howard
From:
48854
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Posted 15 Dec 2008 5:39 am
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Quite common - I've heard referred to as "comping" although that may be the wrong usage of the word.
_________________
http://www.drewhoward.com |
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John Macy
From:
Rockport TX/Denver CO
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Posted 15 Dec 2008 6:00 am
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Yep, right word...."comping" = compiling.. 
_________________
John Macy
Rockport, TX
Engineer/Producer/Steel Guitar |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 15 Dec 2008 6:09 am
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Well although I would agree that this is common, but it is not cast in concrete. I recently did half a dozen sessions for Muzak, basically did what was stated above, several tracks, several takes, Pro Tools etc.They mostly kept the live takes and made a few edits here and there on the final product. A few times the Engineer laughed and told me " You can do better than that , I heard you " ! One time he threatened to come out and play the Steel and said it would be ugly, so I better not let that happen !
The biggest issue was the producers, they really knew nothing about Steel Guitars and how they fit into the mix, the tracks were totally cluttered before I even played note #1. Great guys, great musicians, just not up on Steel Guitar recording etiquette !
BUT
I went to see forum member Mickey D in Nville recording somewhere on Music Row, a real nice studio, Pro Tools , all that.
I was in the control room during many of the takes and the engineers just deleted all the previous takes, I asked him if he ever kept takes and used them, cut and paste, he said..nahh..these are pro's, they are paid to play and thats what they do. Thats why they are here ! He said it was just easier and faster to let them play great stuff and he was right. Each new take was different and better than the previous.
So, common, but not cast in concrete. |
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Damir Besic
From:
Nashville,TN.
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Posted 15 Dec 2008 6:28 am
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I was at the RCA studio "B" down on 16th Ave. with Vassar Clements few years ago and producer had him go through the entire song 5-6 times and then used those 6 tracks to cut and paste one...I was little disapointed but hey, if thats how its done and what producer is asking from you than so be it, he pays you so he can do whatever he wants and how he wants it...
Db
_________________
www.steelguitarsonline.com |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 15 Dec 2008 6:40 am Re: session work / cut and paste.
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| BGrado wrote: |
I just had the good fortune of playing my first "paid" recording gig. I have to say it was definitely a learning experience. One thing that I discovered is what you play in the studio is not necessarily what you hear in the finished product.
The way the session went is the engineer had me play 5 or so passes. When he was ready to mix he "cut" parts from each pass (the ones heliked) and "pasted" them to an open track.
In effect what he was doing was creating his own parts using the "samples" that I provided him.
Wow.. Is this common recording practices?
To be perfectly honest the finished product might resemble my playing but the "feel" I thought I put
on the original track is no longer there.
I don't know.. It's a paying gig.. It's their product.. Let them do with it what they will.
Right? |
You get paid these days to give them something that they can sample and cut up and put back together as if they really knew what they were doing musically. Don't ever expect to hear your work played back in the same context as YOU created it and envisioned it. Take the money and don't worry about it. 99% of all recordings end up on some website or just getting played for the artists mother and girlfriends. Session work is not the glitz and glamour that a lot of people think it is. |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 15 Dec 2008 7:47 am
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Don't forget who it all belongs to. (and it AIN'T YOU)
Ever wonder why a regular session musician gets no royalties? He/she is WORK FOR HIRE -- i.e., a CONTRACTOR. They pay; you play; they own it; you have no rights to it at all (except possibly bragging rights if it sounds good).
We are talking BUSINESS here, not art. If you want to be the producer, do your own CD.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 15 Dec 2008 7:49 am
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I guess if you did a lot of work for a studio, they'd soon have enough licks to cut and paste in most any song. You might cut parts on 25 songs, and end up on 50!  |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 15 Dec 2008 8:05 am
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| I think there's too much paste and not enough cut. |
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Stu Schulman
From:
Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)
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Posted 15 Dec 2008 8:30 am
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Ernest,I eat library paste...been doing it since first grade!Yum.I played on a CD last year that was recorded on Pro-Tools where I played a few tracks and they cut and pasted them...sort of like a "McRib chopped up and reformed"After I got my final CD there is one intro that I played back about ten times in a row wondering how I could play it like that? at a live gig.The part is really cool but not what I played,I've got something close to it now.One group that I record with moved a wrong steel chord over another chord change that sounds totally wrong to me but somehow after a few listens it sounds right....Kids! 
_________________
Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952. |
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Rick Campbell
From:
Sneedville, TN, USA
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Posted 15 Dec 2008 9:53 am
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You have the right attitude. Do what they ask for and let them have at it. They're paying the bill. Anyway, every recording is not about featuring the steel guitar, or any other instrument for that matter. It's the total "pleasing to the average ear" sound they're looking for.
I use to do takes over and over, but anymore when whoever I'm working for says it sounds good to them, I say "okay" and move on the the next one. I always think I can improve on it and I'd be there all day if I let my opinion get in the way.
One thing I do think there's too much of is piece work recording, where most of the lead instruments are dubbed at separate times. I think you lose a lot of interaction between musicians this way. I prefer some "live" sound in the recordings and when you dub so much, it gets to sounding mechanical to me.
Something I just won't do is to play without effects. (fiddle most of the time). Sometimes they say they'll add it later. That's okay, but I want to hear something while I'm playing, even if it's not being recorded. I just can't play with everything dry. |
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Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Posted 15 Dec 2008 10:05 am
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I tried to make a recording last year. Our group found that good live performance is no guarantee of good studio performance. We found ourselves sadly lacking. And we are currntly regrouping and developing plan B. Cutting and pasting in the studio seems like probably the best way for all but the best of us to make recordings even at the expense of losing that live feel. It's just not the same thing (unless you're Buddy Emmons or Tom Morrell or...).
_________________
Amor vincit omnia |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 15 Dec 2008 10:09 am
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| Yeah, and thats before they put it through spell checker. |
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Charles Davidson
From:
Phenix City Alabama, USA
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Posted 15 Dec 2008 10:11 am
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Remember one time hearing the BIG E talking about a session with Neil Diamond,He said they kept doing cuts over,over, and over,could'nt make Neil happy with nothing,when the song came out there was'nt a steel lick on it.[Buddy got paid for the session]In my opinion if Buddy could'nt make him happy,FORGET IT. DYKBC.
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Hard headed, opinionated old geezer. BAMA CHARLIE. GOD BLESS AMERICA. ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVIST. SUPPORT LIVE MUSIC ! |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 15 Dec 2008 10:25 am
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I remember one session (it was almost thirty years ago now!) where I had to slightly detune my steel as the track had been slowed down for some reason or other. I had them run the track in the cans so I could get in tune with it as I listened through to the song at the same time, playing the odd chord-change as the sequence became apparent to me.
You've guessed it! When we got to the end, they said - 'That sounds great - let's cue up the next tune!!!' It took some persuasion from me to convince them that I hadn't really been 'playing', just tuning up (or down, in this particular case)!!!
As someone has said, it's usually ignorance of the instrument and its capabilities.
In any case, and as Larry said, it's all their 'property' to do with - or discard - as they will. I actually feel the same way about some sound-guys on gigs - I've given up worrying too much about how they make me sound out front; everything I play that night is the bandleader's property anyway..... 
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 15 Dec 2008 11:03 am
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| Quote: |
Wow.. Is this common recording practices?
To be perfectly honest the finished product might resemble my playing but the "feel" I thought I put
on the original track is no longer there. |
To reiterate what's already been said, it ain't about you and the steel. If the producer is working for the suits, the song is being tailored to promote the singer. If the producer loves music, everything is being tailored for the song. Or it could be some combination of the two.
The last series of sessions I did, for film scores, the composer called me up, described what he wanted and sent me some MP3's, I went out to my studio, recorded some tracks and uploaded them to a server ,with Fetch.
He downloads them, calls in some revisions and changes and I repeat the process. I e-mail an invoice and he mails me a check.
Or I get a cd or DVD with a ProTools session. I "load up the track(s)" and send one back. It's not like the old days, and I miss them.
There was a cd I played on where I didn't get the guitar parts and any direction. There's a reason why I'm not "first call" and after that one, no one will ever call me. |
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Damir Besic
From:
Nashville,TN.
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Posted 15 Dec 2008 11:32 am
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I did a demo for friend of mine Steve Cochran and after he got picked up but some minor label they released a CD and you guessed it, no steel, ot`s not that they didn`t keep what I did, they didn`t even put any steel on it at all, they ruind the songs and the made a pop srumble $hit out of decens country songs.No need to say that songs were played on the radio for a few times and that was it.
Db
_________________
www.steelguitarsonline.com |
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Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
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Tonu Timm
From:
Estonia
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Posted 15 Dec 2008 11:59 am
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| Same with every instrument. I have played guitar for 30 years and nobody cuts my studio-work into pieces. If I play pedal-steel, having only few months of practice, of course, scissors needed. So, lets just try to get better and there's no problem anymore. |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 15 Dec 2008 12:14 pm
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| Edward Meisse wrote: |
| I tried to make a recording last year. Our group found that good live performance is no guarantee of good studio performance. We found ourselves sadly lacking. And we are currntly regrouping and developing plan B. Cutting and pasting in the studio seems like probably the best way for all but the best of us to make recordings even at the expense of losing that live feel. It's just not the same thing (unless you're Buddy Emmons or Tom Morrell or...). |
Call some session players! |
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Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
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Posted 15 Dec 2008 12:24 pm
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Ok, I'm back... BGrado... and all... man...
This is getting more common. Yes, the guy who pays the bill gets to play in anyway he desires. That has always been the case.
Audio guys have a new toy with these computers. They can take a "2 inch piece of tape" and use their "razor" to splice one track in that "tape." Something they couldn't do before. I've had plenty of "watch what I can do" moments from the tech wizard, instead of the "let me do what I do" moment for me.
It's like when phase shifters came out. Nashville records were soaked with them until the new wore off, and people figured out how to use them with some taste.
The convenience of the digital realm is an excellent tool. It has to be tempered with common sense, however, like other things. It has to be recognized as a TOOL, not a whiz bang device.
Now, for my part in this. I try not to think of myself as an ego riddled nut. I do have a lot of experience at this, though, and I get hired because I have the experience and capability to add just the "right moment" to a project. The part that bothers me is the 20-something engineer that doesn't even know what a steel guitar is tearing my part to pieces and placing it where he wants (or is told to by someone paying bills that doesn't know, either). I was not hired as a "sample generator." Now, if that's what I got HIRED to do, fine. I'll play samples all day. If I was hired to bring my taste and expertise to something, then let me do it.
Ok, slam time... not in every case, but odds are, the engineer that wants you to play a ton of passes with a bunch of stuff for him to work with later considers himself to be a player of SOME instrument, and he sits in his nerd hole with his instrument and his computer, playing passes that continually suck, and he manages to build a part with a note from here and a note from there that sounds like whoever his hero is. He can't even begin to fathom the notion that there might be people that actually KNOW how to PLAY, and have the ability to do a wonderful thing in a pass or two.
Tony, thanks for posting in this, and I appreciate your understanding in this. You've seen it first hand. I wish everybody could.
_________________
Mikey D... H.S.P.
Music hath the charm to soothe a savage beast, but I'd try a 10mm first.
http://www.steelharp.com
http://www.thesessionplayers.com/douchette.html
(other things you can ask about here)
http://s117.photobucket.com/albums/o54/Steelharp/ |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 15 Dec 2008 12:49 pm
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| Michael Douchette wrote: |
he sits in his nerd hole with his instrument and his computer, playing passes that continually suck |
Now that is pretty funny !
tp |
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Rick Campbell
From:
Sneedville, TN, USA
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Posted 15 Dec 2008 1:45 pm
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If all the players would just try to all sound alike, as I stated in another thread, we wouldn't have this problem. It's working for the singers. Just everybody copy one another and play the same stuff and throw the style thing out the window. Then we can be robots, or better yet, just let real robots play the sessions. (said with tongue in cheek)
What we need is some more producers like Billy Sherrill. Billy knew who to get for the sessions and didn't have to tell them a lot about how to play. He knew pretty much what they would do when he hired them. None of this telling Lloyd to play a break like Buddy, etc... get them man for the job and let him do his thing. Mikey D's got it right about that. It's not about who's the best player, it's about who's the most suitable player for the song.
My $0.02 anyway. |
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Kyle Everson
From:
Nashville, Tennessee
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Posted 15 Dec 2008 1:47 pm
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You said it, Mikey.
I've had this happen a time or two. Once by a producer (that shall remain nameless, and that Mike prob knows) who effed up my parts so badly, that I thought they had scrapped my session and hired another player to redo it.
Maybe my behavior will change as time goes on, but I am usually insistent with engineers to "just leave it alone," no matter what toy they just found in AmpFarm. The good ones usually do.
(Side note: Just yesterday, I was horrified to find out that my clean, clear, mid-30s Dobro track was being mixed with one that was put through a distorted Marshall plexi plug-in  . The engineer and I reached an agreement  )
I certainly hope this phase doesn't last very long in digital recording. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 15 Dec 2008 2:08 pm
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| Digital is a great medium, you just have to remember to back up the hard drive now and then, because the fact of the matter is clear, it will die, maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but one day when you least expect it. |
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