| Author |
Topic: Amp Impact of Flat Pick vs. Finger Picks |
Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 16 Nov 2008 12:17 am |
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| Quote: |
| Also, 6-stringers are flailing away with their whole arm and a flat pick |
That is absolute stereotypical nonsense and not even worth a response - other than to say it represents a tiny percentage of six string players.
Just more "we steelers play with taste, skill and control - 6-stringers are a bunch of string bashing neanderthals" crap. "Flailing away"? Please don't insult the intelligence...and skill...of the multi-instrumentalists on this forum with such swill.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 16 Nov 2008 8:52 am
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| Quote: |
| Also, 6-stringers are flailing away with their whole arm and a flat pick; whereas, I'm doing intricate picking with finger picks. |
 
Some guitar players "flail" - verb 1 swing wildly. 2 (flail around/about) flounder; struggle. [Oxford Dictionary]. But not the really good ones, IMHO. Even if they're playing strongly, good guitar players are very much in control of what they're doing.
I think the issue with size of amp has very little to do with "flailing away" (or more correctly, playing strongly) vs. intricate fingerpicking. I think it's mainly about desired tone, how to obtain sustain, and so on. There are a lot of ways to get a guitar to attack the input section of an amp strongly, and many do not require strongly attacking the strings.
A lot of (not all) modern guitarists "play the amp" as much as they play the guitar. By this, I mean a lot of interaction in the upper, nonlinear region of the amp. This is not necessarily extreme distortion at all - on something like a smaller-midsized BF/SF Fender like a stock DR, VR, or even a Pro Reverb, there is often no extreme distortion. It can be a very subtle nonlinearity, more related to compression than saturating, near-square-wave distortion.
So for such players using a tube amp, the playing model is more to work the mid-upper end of the power amp, not the clean lower-middle like a lot of steel players seem to do. This imposes very different requirements on the amp. It has to sound good in that upper region, and I think that's the problem with some (not all) of the stock silverface and later designs. It doesn't matter if you're in the middle of the amp power range, but when you push, it is sometimes a problem.
My opinions, of course. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 16 Nov 2008 9:03 am
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Okay, maybe I overstated the case with the "flailing" comment. But the point is that picking with finger picks is quieter and less forceful than picking with a flat pick. It has nothing to do with taste, skill, or control (I'm in awe of the skill of some flat-pickers). It's simple physics. A close-held flat pick using the force of your entire hand, wrist and forearm has much more force than fingers. Yes, flat-pickers do intricate single string stuff with the pick and their fingers. But when they strum a heavy power chord, or strum across all the strings with their whole arm, they excite the strings much more forcefully than picking a three- or four-grip chord with finger picks.
There are other differences I didn't mention. 6-stringers often get sustain by distortion, by locking the pre and power tubes in overdrive, meaning the top volume the amp can produce, and beyond its rated output. Steelers get clean sustain by attacking with the volume pedal held way back, sending a weak signal way below what will overdrive the amp (many steel amps wont overdrive anyway), then as the string vibrations die out they increase the volume pedal to match that, but (if they have the desired smooth, even sustain) the signal remains very weak, and the amp, even though it may be dimed and amplifying hugely, is only putting out something in the bottom range of its output abilities. So you have a strong signal with the pre and power amps in overdrive, versus a weak signal with the amp less than halfway to overdrive. Check out the volume difference between channels on any amp with clean and overdrive channels. Even maxed out, the clean channel will have much less maximum volume than the dirty channel.
Edited: Dave was posting at the same time I was, and we said much the same thing about overdrive volume versus clean volume. And yes, silver-face amps wont give much or any drive, unless they have black-face mods. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 18 Nov 2008 5:47 am
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| Code: |
| A lot of (not all) modern guitarists "play the amp" as much as they play the guitar |
Absolutely! Attack and touch is a huge part of the modern 6-string players' bag o' "licks", as it were. The amp becomes (and is) an instrument itself.
The current tendency is to use smaller amps cranked up, and use touch/attack for control more than pedals, with clean-boost pedals (or REAL overdrives as opposed to distortion pedals with "overdrive" in the name) used to really kick them over into the smooth, cello-like "woman tone" (a description of Eric Clapton's smooth, controlled, liquid distortion tone - not the ratty, ragged buzzsaw type distortion). More players nowadays use a very light touch on 6-string, and a huge number of players have taken up hybrid flatpick and fingers) picking, something I started doing from the very start 40+ years ago.
WIth the exception of a few players who use them for a specific type of sound (quite often in country), I've found most 6-stringers who use compressors are doing so because they *can't* play with good right-hand control and need one to keep the volume level relatively consistent - i.e. it's a crutch for poor technique.
When playing live my tube amps are usually almost wide-open, and biased on the hot side so they do not stay clean - yet I play very quietly at times without touching the guitar's volume control (or a volume pedal) - it's mostly right hand control.
| Quote: |
| But the point is that picking with finger picks is quieter and less forceful than picking with a flat pick. It has nothing to do with taste, skill, or control (I'm in awe of the skill of some flat-pickers). It's simple physics. A close-held flat pick using the force of your entire hand, wrist and forearm has much more force than fingers. |
David, I'm sorry, but that is totally incorrect, and has NOTHING to do with "simple physics". Fingerpickers can (and do) play with as varied an attack as I described above, or just play lightly, or JUST pay hard - and so do flatpickers. The type of pick used has absolutely zero relationship to how HARD you pick. Also, flatpickers rarely use their forearm as a "strength" tool - it's used to position the hand; 90% of the force used to pick by experienced players (let's qualify that as *good* experienced players) is in the wrist and fingers, and it's a very light, controlled movement.
Good players also hold the flatpick so lightly there is barely enough pressure to hold it - that's one key to good technique. Those who grip the pick like a vise are in trouble right from the start, and also cause undue strain on their right arm. If you think about that for a second, fingerpickers do not have that option - the pick is firmly attached!
Good players of both instrument play with touch and attack to control volume - but steel players are more apt to rely on a mechanical device to offset any lack of right-hand control than 6-stringers are - and that's the volume pedal. I know it's primarily used as a sustain device, but it's also an available crutch for bad right-hand control. It's interesting to listen to Sneaky Pete playing some of his slower, more "country" things (such as some of the Ronstadt sessions) - he often didn't even use a volume pedal, and all the volume and attack control was right-hand dynamics.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 18 Nov 2008 9:39 am
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Can't agree it's "totally incorrect." Sure you can play lightly or hard with either a flat pick or finger picks. And if you don't pick with your arm all the time, with a flat pick it's there when you need it. In general, playing with a flat pick is louder (before the signal hits the pickup) than finger picking.
I didn't mean to derail this into a futile disagreement over picking technique. I was just mentioning the many reasons a steeler needs such a big amp compared to guitar. Flat pick versus finger picks is not one of the main reasons, but it figures in. Another reason I didn't mention is that fretting with a bar is a little quieter than holding the string down to a metal fret solidly imbedded in the neck. All these differences add up. That was my only point. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 19 Nov 2008 5:40 pm
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| Quote: |
| In general, playing with a flat pick is louder (before the signal hits the pickup) than finger picking. |
Naw, we're not derailed.
I just think...no, in this case I will say I flat-out KNOW...that's incorrect - and thinking that way has a big effect on "playing" the amp. This discussion has come up countless times on acoustic guitar forums, electric guitar, dobro...
...the type of picking - flat or finger - does not indicate "harder" or softer". Maybe in David's case it's how HE plays, and that's fine - but it's not a generalization that's correct by any means, and it's a subject that's been discussed to death - to the extent of types and gages of picks of each types used, instrument played, etc etc.
It's just not a fact - fingerpicking and flatpicking can be hard, soft, or in between.
Probably some of the hardest and most explosive picking I ever heard was Jerry Douglas in his 20's at a festival jam session. Some of the *quietest* picking I've ever heard, conversely, was by Clarence White; warming up on a D-28, full speed, and almost inaudible from 6 feet away - unless he WANTED to be heard.
It's not the pick - it's the player.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 19 Nov 2008 8:05 pm
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| I flat-out know I'm right. If you want to play loud, you can play louder with a flat pick than with finger picks. That's why the vast majority of bluegrass guitarists flat pick, and why you can't hear a Dobro in an acoustic bluegrass jam, even though the reso instrument itself is much louder than a guitar. Sure you can play quietly either way. But, all else being equal, if you want to play loud, flat-picking is louder. Period. |
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Lefty
From:
Grayson, Ga.
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Posted 22 Nov 2008 2:21 am
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David,
Your statement is incorrect. Some of the guitarist the hardest attack I have ever heard use thumbpicks (Johnny Winter and Albert Collins to name a couple).
Also Toy, the guitarist for Marshall Tucker was a thumbpick man.
Its all aout the fingers and style. Pick selection does matter: I can even tell the difference between a tortex pick and a Fender plastic pick. But as I have heard stated on here before by the pro's "Its all about the fingers".
Lefty |
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Bob Martin
From:
Madison Tn
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Posted 22 Nov 2008 6:46 am
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Just ask any woman that loves a musician she will tell you "it's all in the fingers" ya know what I mean????
Bob
_________________
***Praise God From Whom All Blessings Flow*** |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 22 Nov 2008 7:00 am
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"In general, playing with a flat pick is louder (before the signal hits the pickup) than finger picking."
David, I disagree.
"Its all about the fingers".
Lefty, I agree.
I threw away my flatpicks 30 years ago. I only fingerpick. Aside from the convenience (picks on, picks off) when playing steel and 6-string in band situations, I found I had much better control over dynamics, and the subtleties of tone variations. And, having played with flatpicks and fingerpicks, I know that I can play just as loudly with each. I have very strong fingers on both hands( I do multiple behind the nut bends on my baritone guitars which none of my friends have even come close to doing)
Another plus is that I can pinch-snap strings and have no longer the need for any sort of compressor. That technique seems to drive the strings into compression. I've been asked many times,"What kind of compressor are you using?"
I use a very short, stubby thumbpick, and a double-bladed fingerpick on my index finger. I can put my thumb against that double-sided index pick, and play it just like a flatpick whenever I need to.
I'll never go back to the limitations of a flatpick. No way! |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 22 Nov 2008 7:03 am
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| And,,, I always figured that the main reason the dobro seems softer in Bluegrass settings, was that all the other instruments are aimed at the listeners, while the dobro was aimed up at the sky. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 22 Nov 2008 11:06 am
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What John said regarding Dobro - although having doubled on guitar and Dobro in bluegrass bands, playing 4-5 nights a week for almost ten years PLUS tons of festivals I...and every other Dobro player who WANTED o be heard...had NO problem burying every other instrument in a jam. The instrument is designed as a mechanically-amplified guitar, and except for beginners who were trying to keep it down to listen and learn, any dobro player with a good instrument, properly set up, could match the volume of any banjo or mandolin (depending, as John said, on position - I would usually sit when playing dobro in a jam when others were standing); and the acoustic guitar - I don't care if it's a '39 'bone played with a piece of 1/8" plexiglass for a pick - is absolutely the quietest instrument in a bluegrass band.
Tut Taylor flatpicks his Dobros - 99% of other Dobro players fingerpick...Tut has to be mic'd differently than most because he plays quieter.
Working soundboard for bluegrass is always a challenge - in the old days with one or two mics the guitarist rarely took solos, and if the player did you had to crank the mic and immediately dial it down *fast* when any other instrument came in or the overall sound was terrible, constising of mainly mando...or fiddle...or banjo.
Nowadays with individual mics for everything it's easier, but still challenging, as to get a guitarist up to the level of other instruments at the louder overall sound levels used today you are riding the razor blade of feedback. I've seen more bands where the guitar is mic'd so he/she can "work the mic" for solos but also has a direct-inject signal running off an active pickup or internal mic/pickup combo to provide just enough consistent, smooth signal to keep the mix controllable without feedback...and allow the guitarist to be heard with decent tone (a cranked-up, high-quality mic on a D-28 can still make it sound like an amplified garbage can lid if things are not carefully planned).
And interestingly, I've found that guitarists who use fingerpicks and are primarily instrumentalists (Leo Kottke and Adrian Legg come to mind right away) play louder than any flatpick guitar player I've ever heard.
Still - there IS no stereotype that relates to the type of pick itself - it's the player's attack and instrument that dictate the string vibration.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 22 Nov 2008 11:33 am
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Ain't budging, guys. I'm not talking about various techniques that can be done with one versus the other, and not talking about when you hold a flat pick gently. I'm just sayin', if you want to grip a flat pick firmly and play as loud as you can with your whole hand and arm, you will be way louder with a flat pick than with finger pickin'. I will concede you can do about the same thing with a thumb pick, if you grip it with your index finger against your thumb and put your whole hand and arm into it. But then you've basically turned a thumb pick into a flat pick, and that's not finger pickin'.
Even if I play a roundneck reso facing out (as I do for slide guitar blues), flat-picking is louder than finger-picking. I think it is obvious to most people that gripping a single pick with your hand, and using the strength of your whole hand and arm is much stronger than playing with only your fingers. You guys are bringing in extraneous aspects of technique in favor of finger picking. It's not about that. It's about sheer volume when you want it.
This is not that big a deal. I merely mentioned it as one of many reasons (and maybe the least of them) why you need a bigger amp for steel than regular guitar. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 23 Nov 2008 10:16 am
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It's not a big deal, true - but MO it presents a misconception regarding what kind of amp is needed based on the fact steel is fingerpicked - as if you could use a smaller amp if you flatpicked steel.
I think the picking issues may very well be present in the way you have personally played for many years - everyone plays their own way, and pick angles, string gage, guitar and muscle strength can all have effects. But it's just not a thing you can classify as a fact covering all players...or even the majority. It simply makes no difference except to players who DO play lighter with fingerpicks. You're one of those players, and so you have that perception. The hundreds of students I've had would show it to be totally random, and in my own playing the type of pick makes zero difference in how hard or lightly I play - that's dictated by the song and who I WANT to attack. It's all right-hand control.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 23 Nov 2008 10:29 am
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| I'd think there are limits as to how loud a guitar can actually get. Physical restrictions. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 23 Nov 2008 12:34 pm
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| Paul Franklin or Jerry Douglas fingerpicking (or anyone else) versus Pete Townshend with a flat pick or any Metal or Punk shredder - my money is on the flat pickers for putting the most energy in the strings. Sure, Pete or the shredders or Tut Taylor (heard him flat pick a Dobro acoustic and miked) or any other flat picker can play gently if they choose, and that might be their normal style. And some finger pickers may play hard as their normal style. That was never my point. You guys are being contrary and setting up your own straw men to knock down. My point is simply that, IF A FLAT PICKER WANTS TO, they can get more volume out of the strings than a finger picker. How various players choose to control their fingers to play softer or harder is irrelevant to that point. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 23 Nov 2008 9:43 pm
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| Quote: |
| My point is simply that, IF A FLAT PICKER WANTS TO, they can get more volume out of the strings than a finger picker. |
The number of counterexamples is numerous.
Take any really good flamenco player - they just hammer the guitar. Well trained classical guitar players can project their sound to the back of a large auditorium using a good classical guitar with nylon strings and no amplification.
Consider someone like Adrian Legg or a host of others using a similar approach - same deal. Shall I go on?
The issue isn't picking style - it's the training and desire to pick hard, whatever the style. There are no specific limits to any particular technique - I think the limits are in the guitar itself and the human mind.
Of course, even this is purely about string vibrational energy, which is but a part of the picture - my earlier point.
My opinions, of course. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 24 Nov 2008 8:30 am
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I play Flamenco. Yes you can get amazing volume with finger-nails and an acoustic nylon string guitar. You can compete with stomping tap dancers, clapping hands and castenets, and get the sound to the back of a large auditorium. And in that style you can do more with fingers than with a flat pick. BUT, if you wanted to play that style with a flat pick, you would get a little more volume, for what it's worth - my only point.
I get all of you guys' contrarian point that there are exceptions to the stereotype, where somebody plays louder with fingers than somebody else does with a flat pick. So? Take any one player with one instrument. Tell them to play as loud as they can with fingers. Then give them a flat pick and tell them to play as loud as they can with it. They will be louder with the flat pick. I can't believe anyone would bother to argue that point. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 24 Nov 2008 9:29 am
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My finger picks are chrome plated nickel. Most flat picks are plastic. I think I can get more string vibration out of finger picks than most flat pickers can muster. Not that I want to, but the physics are on my side. The nickel doesn't flex like a plastic flat pick.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 24 Nov 2008 9:41 am
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| Quote: |
| BUT, if you wanted to play that style with a flat pick, you would get a little more volume, for what it's worth - my only point. |
I'll bet a really good fingerstyle player can drive the string vibration amplitude into its saturation limit every bit as well as a flatpicker. There is a saturation limit - only 'ideal' strings are linear. In fact, the amplitude response to being driven hard is highly nonlinear.
I think the difference is that it takes more training to control this for fingerpicking. The fact that I, or other players, can control a flatpick better than a fingerpick doesn't prove anything, IMO.
I'm not sure what the point of this argument is - the original topic this was spinned off from was about the price of silverface amps, and different perceptions about why smaller versions are (or are not) suitable for pedal steel. The argument was made that a significant contributory factor against using smaller Fender amps was that pedal steel players don't excite the strings as much. I think that is pretty much irrelevant for a lot of reasons, including my belief that
1. A fingerpicker can excite the strings to their saturation limit if they want to learn how to, and
2. One can use electronics to equalize any differences in input level to the amp. |
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 24 Nov 2008 9:44 am
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| I played flamenco. Flamenco won, 24-16. |
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Eric Jaeger
From:
Oakland, California, USA
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Posted 24 Nov 2008 9:46 am
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eh? Amplitude of a guitar string is the amplitude of the string vibration -- how big is the string waveform. I can pull the string off the guitar with either the flat pick or the thumb/finger pick. I can make six strings vibrate at once with a flatpick, and at least four with thumb/finger picks (actually I can play six, but...  ).
The energy in the string is simply a function of how far you move it. Either way.
-eric |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 24 Nov 2008 9:57 am
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"1. A fingerpicker can excite the strings to their saturation limit if they want to learn how to"
String saturation is what I was referring to : "I'd think there are limits as to how loud a guitar can actually get. Physical restrictions."
Also here: "Another plus is that I can pinch-snap strings and have no longer the need for any sort of compressor. That technique seems to drive the strings into compression. I've been asked many times,"What kind of compressor are you using?"
I can play softly, or as loudly as the guitar will allow. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 27 Nov 2008 11:00 pm
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| Quote: |
| My point is simply that, IF A FLAT PICKER WANTS TO, they can get more volume out of the strings than a finger picker. |
And that point is wrong. The "stereotype", as you call it, does not exist - and all the examples given are typical, not exceptions.
David, I think the only "contrarian" view...or stereotype...is the one you've set your mind on. Go back and look at this thread - unless I missed something nobody at all agrees with you, and most of the participants are musicians with decades of experience.
You're claiming something you can't prove that nobody's buying. Don't call the crowd contrary when you're the one flying solo!
Sometimes ya' gotta know when to fold the cards.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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