The Steel Guitar Forum

Probably a dumn question but most of mine are anyhow. So if that's the case, add this one to the long list. But!

In reading so many threads with folks telling others to tighten up thier return spring/s, in order to get the raise to Return True, etc. Becomes a question that makes sense to me. See if I'm right or wrong on the way I feel about it.

And, no! I've never owned one, but wouldn't it make much better sense, to first be Certain that the Finger/s THEMSELVES are Absolutely and Completely FREE to move on their own(no sludge or dirt) without any string, spring or rod connected to that particular finger/s in question?

Otherwise, lets say it was slowly gumming up. So I put a little more tension on the return spring. Ah! Problem solved!! Now, within a very short time, that happens again, and once again I put a little more tension on the return spring. Problem solved again, for a short time.

Now lets assume a player comes in and asks if you mind if he sits down at your steel.. He pushes a pedal, and although he says nothing to you, inside he's saying to himself: "I don't want any of this brand, that thing has the hardest pedals I've ever sat behind."

We all know that you can tighten any return spring up and if it's tight enough, it will pull a finger back to where it goes. But! In doing that, when the real problem was in the first place, it simply needed a good cleaning and lube, and about 1/4 or more of that pressure could be removed from the return springs.

Possibly that's why I've heard and played many that had return problems, and it gave me a bad impression on quite a few of them, for having to nearly stand on the pedals to get them up to pitch, and almost always returned untrue.
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Note: Also, remember, with no pressure at all on a finger, it could very well give the impression that it was fine. Even with no strings or springs hooked up to it. The problem with a dry finger usually wouldn't show up, until after it had pressure on the axel. I feel that one thing has most likely caused more detuning problems, than any other thing on the pedal steels, that have had problems in those areas. Not to mention the extra stress on the cabinet due to over tension on springs.

Am I, or could I be right in my way of thinking about it, or am I way off base as usual? Don

With all due respect, you're way off base! There are no return-springs on Raises. The Return~Springs only come into use when Lowering the pitch of a string. They need enough tension to bring the string back “up” to pitch after Lowering or enough tension to keep them from ‘lifting-off’ when the string is being Raised. (very slowly)

Hey Don,

Another thing to consider is the cabinet drop when you have to press harder on the pedals because of spring tension. This all causes the tone to go lower especially the pedals in the middle. I'm with you, there is a problem if the tone does not come true when you release with normal spring pressure. Maybe gummed up or maybe a mechanical problem. I would look underneath and see that the fingers touch the stops when released and why not if they don't. I'm not much of a PSG mechanic but that's my take on it.

Thanks
Darrell

Hi John,

That's ok! I like, (and appreciate) folks who tell it like it is. I wish more folks would do the same. Then it would be a standup world.

Also, this might seem to be more complicated than it needs to be, but, it might help someone. In other words, "There is nothing as good as removing the total changer, and cleaning off all of the old gum, etc., from the axle and fingers, and then relubing to have a great working steel. That, if not done, could be the cause for a much poorer working steel, than it would be otherwise.

This too, may be wrong, but it's how I'm seeing it (in my mind) as I'm writing.

Granted a raised string, should (from the extra tension on the string when raised past it's open tuning, (at the rest stop) return to it's rest setting, without needing any help at all.

And, any string will lower itself on down from that intended rest stop, (when given the chance) without any help.

The help comes into play when returning from a lowered position. The force required to get it back, (in whatever way achieved) has to overcome the force of the string's lowered tension, as compared to it's extra tension, when brought back up to the open (at rest) pitch. (= tuned open rest)

My Terminology on this subject: "When given the chance" (to me) means: "Something first has to give it the chance to react on it's own."

But since it does need help in returning back up to pitch, (after it's lowered) that is the return springs job.

The main point I was trying to make was, I honestly believe that a lack of lubrication, may cause many more problems, than what otherwise would show up, simply by removing everything from the finger/s in question and find they work fine. (even swing back and forth "on the axle shaft", 'by themselves' freely). While at the same time, they may be as DRY as a bone, and not do their job, while under a LOADed condition, (as in, strings tuned up to pitch) while on that same dry axel that had checked out fine, while under NO LOAD.

Maybe that is better stated. Or, maybe I'm wrong again. Yes? No?

I've been playing PSG since 1957 and no builder that I know of has ever suggested that dismantling the changer should ever be necessary! It's only in the most recent years that so many “players” have gotten that sort of notion about taking things apart and putting them back together again! And the closest I've ever heard was the builder's suggestion of just one small drop of a good quality oil on the top of each Bridge-Finger where it rubs on either side of the next finger. (sparingly & only occassionally) Taking everything apart and ‘tinkering’ is almost totally unnecessary! When it comes to Bridges and Axiles, they used to be considered perminently lubricated! I've owned nearly 2-doz. PSG's and have never faced the necessity of disasmbling a changer! I'm sure I'm not “just one of the lucky ones”!

Darrell,

I'll admit, there are a whole lot of things such as cabinet drop, strings buzzing at the first fret, and many other things, that before coming on this forum, I never even knew existed.

So I'm now living in a different world than what I had been. After playing the same steel for all these years, that hasn't ever had even one, of the above problems, I've mentioned.

I'm now about to find out what I must have missed out on for all of those years, from not having to deal with any of the above.

I've taken the plunge, just to see exactly what it's like to own (and play) one (of the many) top brands of pedal steel. The brand won't be mentioned, but my findings, WILL be factual of exactly how it compares (to me) in it's playing ability, as well as, any detuning, along with anything else, as compared to my 1968-69 D-10 8+4. The setup is the same, except for the 5th (Left knee Vertical). I won't be using that in any test playing I do, since that wouldn't be a fair test to the guitar, beings I never dropped my B's previously.

I appreciate all the replies, so don't ever feel you can't correct me, without me taking offense. As I said, when I'm wrong, I'm usually wrong all the way.

John,

You're right on saying that manufacturers, don't say anything on that subject. Neither did George when he built mine. I took it apart after probably the first 20 years of playing the same steel under all kinds of conditions.. And, it looked to still be in great condition, Still played great, but was indeed a bit on the dry side, so I cleaned it, relubed, and continued on until I retired. Last year was the first time ever for completely taking the total steel apart to get all of the many, many years of nicotine cleaned off of everything.

I'm going by many others here on the forum and what their problems have been. As, I'm sure you've seen all of those many, many threads as well.

I'd be willing to bet there are many who have had problems, that simply take them back to the dealer or whoever, to get them gone over, when they feel they aren't playing right.. Matter of fact, I know there are.

Not saying that's been their problem, but simply reading through the many different posts it sure seems a lot of the problems could be due to simply being, lack of maintenance.

I guess the second part of my point is this:

After they get the steel cleaned, lubed and back up and running, we never hear where they then, RELEASE that Tightened or, Replace that CUT Off Spring, with a new one, to return it back to where it should be, on the Tension side a things. That being just strong enough to do it's job, but nothing more.

Example: If I have a Carb, that needs a stiffer throttle return spring, because of gum on the butterfly shaft, I'm sure going to replace that spring back to the stock spring, after it's again working great.

And just possibly many who cut off a spring, then finally clean things and get them back to working great, forget they no longer need that extra tension they once needed, to make things work.

Thanks again, for your thoughts on it too.

It's appreciated
Don

You're correct, imo; that probably most of the time, periodic maintinence would have avoided nearly all the mechanical problems some people are having nowadays! Only a tiny drop of good quality oil on moving parts will do wonders in the long run! The axile on the changer is actually coated with a heavier grease when assembled and I would assume that a large amount of oil would eventually wash away that grease in time! Too much can be as problematic as not enough!