Amp Modelling devices

Billy Murdoch · From: Glasgow, Scotland, U.K.

How true is the advertising hype?
If I were to purchase a stomp box which has been advertised as replicating the tone of a famous Amp and I play it thru' any amplifier I cannot believe it will recreate any of the "vintage"tone promised.
Surely these devices are just adjustable tone circuits offering gain and EQ settings.
best regards
Billy

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I think you're pretty much dead-on. While these devices may add some flexibility to a cheap amp, they won't do very much for a good one. Their best asset is adding a little tube-like compressed distortion which lead players or lap steelers might crave. I don't think they offer anything for pedal steel, where we're concerned mainly with clean tones and no compression.

David Doggett · Posted 17 Oct 2008 10:12 am

Well, they are not like the real thing, but the better ones are more than mere EQ devices. They do add some richer tube-like tone to a clean amp that sounds a little too sterile. They can give you a tone somewhere between true tube tone and sterile solid-state tone, which is not a bad place to be for pedal steel.

They can also be an improvement for situations where you go direct into a PA or mixer. My POD XT model of a Twin w/ 15" speaker cab greatly improves my sound for practicing through a small mixer and headphones. And for playing live or recording direct into the board, for me this would sound better than many solid-state amps. But I mostly play through real tube amps, so don't usually need a model. With multi-effects modelers like the POD, you also get some very good reverb and delay options.

Lynn Oliver · From: Redmond, Washington USA * R.I.P.

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

Truthfully, I can't distinuguish between the amps in my POD XT. I've tried several, directly to a power amp/speaker or to the Power Amp in on my Nashville 112, and I can't really hear any difference.

I played through a Fender Twin Reverb in the 70's and can't hear a Fender Twin Reverb with the XT's modeling.

However, the POD XT does have some very realistic effect modeling. The Spring Reverb sounds like a spring reverb and the Tremolo sounds exactly like the Termolo in an old Fender.

I primarily only use my POD XT for effects only.

Leslie Ehrlich · From: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada

I find that my amp modeler (POD XT) sound best when recording directly to the computer. I like a thick and midrangey sound with pedal steel (clean or overdriven), and modeling amps can do that when recorded direct.
_________________
Sho-Bud Pro III + Marshall JMP 2204 half stack = good grind!

Lynn Oliver · From: Redmond, Washington USA * R.I.P.

David Doggett · Posted 17 Oct 2008 3:47 pm **Re: Amp Modelling devices**

Steve Hotra · From: Camas, Washington

I've been using modelers for a few years with my guitars. I've customized a few patches that sound great with my POD X3L.
But this is the best amp ( IMHO ) for true modeling sound
http://www.atomicamps.com/faq.html
_________________
Guitars: Rittenberry SD S-10, Gretsch Black Falcon. Effects: Wampler Paisley, Strymon Timeline, Sarno Earth Drive.
Fractal FM9
Amps: Mesa Express 5:25, Jazzkat Tomkat & Boss Katana head / various cabs.

Tony Dingus · From: Kingsport, Tennessee, USA

Jack, have you ever tried a pre amp with the Pod for cab simulating and effects? I've got a Mesa Boogie Studio Pre that I use in the studio recording direct and was wondering if the Pod's cab sim would sound good with a pre amp.

Tony

Lynn Oliver · From: Redmond, Washington USA * R.I.P.

A current related thread:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=143837&sid=2d9270ce84227ae8861f7edee3a0a130

I'd guess that the Furlong SPLIT would work well with a POD xt, although for steel it would probably make better sense to use a really good tube preamp instead.

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

Tony, I haven't tried just the cab simulation.

I have used the POD XT directly to the power amp section of a Crate Power Block to two speaker cabs with 12" Model 1203-8 Black Widow speakers, on the New Years eve gig two years ago as I had to double on steel and lead. I used the "Brad Paisley" program that I downloaded from Line 6 for my Tele and I don't remember what preamp that uses. I used the "Line 6 Clean" preamp for the steel.

I have used the POD XT, with a preamp program directly to my Alesis io26 Firewire unit to Sonar 7 and it sounded as good as recording with a Nashville 112. I did a gospel CD project for a local singer and this was the first time recording with the POD XT and it worked out good. I used the "Line 6 Clean" preamp.

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

Rule #1: The presets are nonsense;
Rule #2: The names applied to each cabinet and amp model have a tenuous relationship with what they really do, i.e. a "heavy metal" speaker cabinet is a rearrangement of short reverb and power-loading model parameters, rather than anything to do with a style of music - the "metal" cabs on some Digitechs are great for steel;
Rule #3: It might not take you as long to figure out modelers as regular amps... if you have spent twenty years trying different tube amps and speakers to get to the "best" you should be able to figure out modelers in half that, assuming you remember rules #1 and #2. Mr. Green

You have to do the homework - a 75-watt speaker model will model less speaker excursion than a 30-watt model, a trebly signal feeding a preamp with the treble turned down in the next EQ is going to sound different than a bassy signal feeding a preamp with the bass then re-EQ'd; a lot of it is just listening. People as diverse as Pete Anderson & Def Leppard have gone all-digital, and you most surely hear it all the time without knowing. Just MAKE it sound good, lots of people do.

I like tube amps too, but for consistency at varied volumes digital has won. Recording a vintage tube amp, into Pro Tools, into an Mp3 format, played over computer speakers...

Tony Dingus · From: Kingsport, Tennessee, USA

Thanks Jack. The Boogie pre has cab voiced outs that sound pretty good but, always looking for something new and end up coming back to what I was using to begin with.

Tony

Loren Claypool · From: Mequon, WI

Mr. Mason is dead on - the presets on the PODs are nothing more than a way to show what the unit can do, kind of flashy advertising, totally useless beyond that. And much of what you can download for free from the Line6 site isn't very valuable either.

The modeling on the amps, speakers, mics, and effects is amazingly detailed and accurate. Isolating each of the components with an excellent set of monitors or headphones will show the accuracy of the models.

When creating your patches a rule of thumb is - if it doesn't work in the real world, it won't work in the modeled world. Of course there are exceptions, but thinking of the digital models as their analog targets and working accordingly yields good results.

Also, there is a setting on the POD XT and X3 for use with an amp or as an amp; set this correctly for optimal results. Emulating guitar speakers into guitar speakers doesn't make much sense.

Finally, to Mr. Mason's comment about homework, I couldn't agree more. Create a base of core patches based on your favorite amps and effects, then use those as a launch pad for further tweakage. PODs aren't instant gratification devices, but do the deep dive, craft patches that work for you, and the results can be spectacular.
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Leslie Ehrlich · From: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada

I'm real picky when it comes to amp tones, and the Marshall half stack tone is the benchmark by which I measure all amps, whether they be tube, solid state, or DSP.

I'm not into amps that have a 'hi-fi' tone, which is what most pedal steelers prefer (Webb, Evans, Peavey Nashvilles, Fenders with JBLs, etc.) If a modeling amp doesn't sound like that, I really don't care.

In comparing PODs, I found that the POD XT does the Marshall half stack tone better than the POD 2.0. I like the 'Plexi' setting for overdriven pedal steel sounds, while the 'blackface deluxe' setting is not bad for clean sounds.
_________________
Sho-Bud Pro III + Marshall JMP 2204 half stack = good grind!

Jeff Valentine · From: Colorado Springs, USA

I use a Pod X3 and really love all the options it gives me. It's great if you want to have various sounds at your fingertips. Most people don't want the same sound on every tune, and the pod gives you an easy way to deal with that. It's not designed for pedal steel players, so you'll have to learn how to design your own sounds. Like everyone else said, the preset sounds are mostly designed for guitar players to get that metal/alternative sound.

-Jeff

James Quackenbush · From: Pomona, New York, USA

I agree totally that when using ANY modeler , that you have to start from scratch and make your OWN PATCH !!....It's harder to come off with a CLEAN patch than it is to come off with a high gain , distorted , patch .... Even then , with these modelers , you will probably NEVER get the FEEL of the tube amp ...You don't get the sag that you can get with tube amps .... This has a LOT to do with your playing style whether you notice it or not .... You are also not pushing the speakers like you would in a tube amp when using a modeler , and that also has a lot to do with tone... The variables are never ending .... What I LOT of people don't know either is the fact that with modelers are recreating the tone of other tube amps , and they are modeled to be played thru a PA system with not only woofers , but tweeters ( horns ) also .... So for a lot of the tone for say a clean Fender Twin , will NOT be correctly modeled if you are pushing it thru a regular guitar amp with no horns or tweeters ...Plug it into your full range stereo speakers and you will hear the difference .... Again , there are so many amps , and none of them sound the same ...You can have 6 Fender Blackface Deluxe reverbs in a room , and they will all sound different ...Which one did they model for your modeler ? .....

It matters not how good or bad a modeler is ....It will NEVER be spot on with ANY amp ....You will come close , but NEVER will you be spot on with the feel , the sound, and the dynamics, or any other part of the tone of a REAL tube amp ... Something will always be off ....You WILL come close , and for very little money !!....If close it good enough for you , then you're in business ..... The fact that you can get close to the tone of some very expensive amps for very little money does the job for a LOT of people, and in the mix , you will probably not hear the difference anyway .... Your tone will improve 100% in virtue of practicing your chops ....If your chops are good, it doesn't matter what you play thru .... Buy a decent modeler , and learn how to program it, and practice your playing more ....Rely more on your skill than the modeler .....There are plenty of guys on this forum who have taken the time to make their own patches ...They understand the modeler, and they understand the tone they are searching for ....They come a LOT closer than any factory patch ....Most of the guys that come up with the factory programs for the modelers have never even sat down to a Pedal Steel never mind designed a patch for one .... Good Luck in your quest .... JIm

James Quackenbush · From: Pomona, New York, USA

I agree totally that when using ANY modeler , that you have to start from scratch and make your OWN PATCH !!....It's harder to come off with a CLEAN patch than it is to come off with a high gain , distorted , patch .... Even then , with these modelers , you will probably NEVER get the FEEL of the tube amp ...You don't get the sag that you can get with tube amps .... This has a LOT to do with your playing style whether you notice it or not .... You are also not pushing the speakers like you would in a tube amp when using a modeler , and that also has a lot to do with tone... The variables are never ending .... What I LOT of people don't know either is the fact that with modelers are recreating the tone of other tube amps , and they are modeled to be played thru a PA system with not only woofers , but tweeters ( horns ) also .... So for a lot of the tone for say a clean Fender Twin , will NOT be correctly modeled if you are pushing it thru a regular guitar amp with no horns or tweeters ...Plug it into your full range stereo speakers and you will hear the difference .... Again , there are so many amps , and none of them sound the same ...You can have 6 Fender Blackface Deluxe reverbs in a room , and they will all sound different ...Which one did they model for your modeler ? .....

It matters not how good or bad a modeler is ....It will NEVER be spot on with ANY amp ....You will come close , but NEVER will you be spot on with the feel , the sound, and the dynamics, or any other part of the tone of a REAL tube amp ... Something will always be off ....You WILL come close , and for very little money !!....If close it good enough for you , then you're in business ..... The fact that you can get close to the tone of some very expensive amps for very little money does the job for a LOT of people, and in the mix , you will probably not hear the difference anyway .... Your tone will improve 100% in virtue of practicing your chops ....If your chops are good, it doesn't matter what you play thru .... Buy a decent modeler , and learn how to program it, and practice your playing more ....Rely more on your skill than the modeler .....There are plenty of guys on this forum who have taken the time to make their own patches ...They understand the modeler, and they understand the tone they are searching for ....They come a LOT closer than any factory patch ....Most of the guys that come up with the factory programs for the modelers have never even sat down to a Pedal Steel never mind designed a patch for one .... Good Luck in your quest .... JIm

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

David Mason really nailed it in a precise way, and several other comments were excellent. I'll just add a couple odd notes.

Modeling amps sound closer to the "real thing" than amp modelers plugged into something else - that's because the speakers used in modeling amps are (in most cases, anyway) VERY flat response speakers with no discernible tone-shaping. That's intentional, so that the speaker does not screw up the sound. If you REPLACE the speaker in, say, a Line 6 Spider II with a Weber California all your Marshall emulations go out the window (since they're tuned towards a Marshall/Celestion combination, which the California will screw up).

Only replace speakers in modeling amps with speakers designed for them.

I've found that most modeling amps and the POD series do a decent job of emulating the overall vibe of certain amps (and I'm going on the presumption, based on earlier posts, that everyone should nuke the presets to get rid of the effects and start from scratch). To a Vox AC30 owner the Vox patch won't sound "real" - but to an audience member it'll have that tone he/she remembers from the record if the band is doing covers.

Too many players do NOT take that into account - we ALL stand or sit on stage (or in front of the recording console) with the mindset that everyone is a musician and everyone knows the tonal difference between a wide-panel tweed Deluxe run through a 4x12 Vintage 30 cabinet and a Fender DSP amp though a Champ speaker. But the truth is, 99% of what WE hear the average audience member doesn't. We get FAR too anal sometimes...but that's half the fun. Razz

Last note - modeling amps (and pedal-type amp modelers like the new Boss/Fender ones) are not the only things that get you from A to B. I stumbled on something so voodoo-like a few years ago it's frightening; a Lovetone Brown Source pedal. Lovetone is known for their wacky, over-the-top, expensive effects units, and the Brown Source is the least known...and least expensive...of their line (still VERY hard to find and quite expensive - but for me invaluable).

Playing at home it sounds like the world's lamest overdrive pedal. It just simply sounds weak. But when you play with a band or along with recorded tracks something...I have NO idea what, and I've hand-built pedals...changes, and all of a sudden you're playing through a plexi Marshall with a 4x12 Greenback cabinet (a very early Marshall amp head with low-powered Celestion speakers - this combination is as revered as the Fender Twin Reverb, if not MORE so, in the 6-string world).

And this happens no matter WHAT amp you're using. I get the same thing with my Pro Reverb, Vibroverb, Deluxe, TWEED Deluxe, Magnatone, ZVex, solid-state Standel...it doesn't care, it's GOING to turn your amp into a Marshall. the settings on it just give you different flavors of the same amp - just like no two amps are the same.

like I said, it's downright spooky. I've had friends use it and the reaction is absolutely unanimous, and ALL of them have found or are looking for them. Yet, as stated, it sounds awful when you just "try it out".
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Lynn Oliver · From: Redmond, Washington USA * R.I.P.

Build your own Lovetone Brown Source Pedal.

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

And just a few more... just like on a real amp, the midrange is where the action is. You just have to get in there and dick with the center frequencies and the Q widths. My Boss VF-1 (and others) have four-band EQ's with two midranges with Q's and centers - it can make a salutary squawk. Mr. Green

Also, if you're looking for a clean big tube amp for steel inside one of these, the Fender Twin ain't it - they give you that to cover a cleanish, 65 watt, 2X12 configuration. The BIG tube amps heads are the '68 Marshalls, the 100 watt Oranges and HiWatts etc. If it sounds good it is good? Set the preamp volume at maybe 15 out of 100....

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