The Steel Guitar Forum

Posted: **30 Sep 2008 6:02 pm**

Hello All,
my name is Rich and i'm brand new here to SGF. I just love the sound of steel guitar and want to get involved more. I'm an electric guitar player/bassist who has absolutely no experience with lap or pedal steel. Stuff i've been listening to lately includes early Willie Nelson, Curly Chalker, Herb Remington, early KD Lang, old Les Paul/Mary Ford, and smidgen of some hawaiian stuff.

I just saw a cool trio (Devil Music Ensemble) play live music to an old Chinese silent film here locally a couple of days ago and two of the guys were playing lap steels along with a selection of analog synths, vibraphone and violin. The steels worked great for special effects and atmospherics. I think i'm hooked!

what would you recommend for someone who's totally interested but overwhelmed by the instrument/theory etc. behind steel playing? Do i just get an instrument and start winging it?

i'm looking forward to any input you may have...

nervous and overwhelmed,
Rich

Posted: **30 Sep 2008 6:07 pm**

You can check out the tutorial page on my web site www.hwnsge.5u.com and others will kick in with more, I'm sure.

Posted: **30 Sep 2008 6:31 pm**

Welcome Richard!!

You are in the right place, I am relatively new myself so I will let these guys steer you proper. All I can say get some info and buy a steel!! Jump in the waters very nice!

Use the search function on the forum there is a lot of great info already written.

All the best!!

<*)))>{

JK

Posted: **30 Sep 2008 7:24 pm**

so...
that begs the question. what instrument to buy? i've been accustomed to nice guitars, so i'd like to buy at least a decent instrument, but since i'm just beginning, i can't see dropping a boatload (i have too many toys already that aren't getting enough play time!). how many strings? lap or pedal?

Rich

Posted: **30 Sep 2008 9:19 pm**

Even tho they've gone up a bit in price, these are deffinitely one of the best sounding new steels around, and certainly a contender for the 'best bang for the buck' award. www.dynalap.com

You'll never 'need' more than 8 strings, and HOF careers have been made on 6.

If you're even considering pedal steel, you better have said boatload of cold cash at hand. And a strong back.

Posted: **1 Oct 2008 4:13 am**

Several forumites have cd's available with instruction material. Rick Alexander has a course that I just purchased that is good, available from the forum (see top tabs on your computer screen). You can also buy strings and such from the forum, super fast shipping. Another foruminte, Terry Wood, teaches steel (pedal and non pedal) by putting together a song or two that you want to learn how to play and then taping it onto cd showing you how to play it. I've just ordered a cd from Terry with some Christmas songs that I want to learn by December. Then there is the Jerry Byrd course you can buy from Scotty's, and don't forget the Cindy Cashdollar Western Swing instruction videos. Lots of good stuff you'll find here on the forum. I purchased a late 1940's to early 50's Rickenbacher Bakelite 6 string that has exceptional sound. If you want to buy new, the Sierra company makes an excellent sounding guitar with the GeorgeL pickups. Good Luck.

Posted: **1 Oct 2008 4:26 am**

if you have an "old and tired" reg guitar....
raise the nut...get some new strings...(right guage) and tune up to GBDGBD (top-bottom).....get after it..
after a day or week.....you can then decide if youreally want to invest in a good guitar...
the sound aint the same....tuning and playig is very similar......go for it....this is what I did...and now have 2 dobros..and a lapsteel....and an old converted silvertone hollow body electric.....converted to lap and C6th tuning...
I just love this stuff.....wish I had discovered it 50 yrs ago.....I might be able to play by now...

Posted: **1 Oct 2008 12:33 pm**

Hi Rich, welcome to the forum.
You're definitely listening to the right stuff!
You might want to think about getting a double 8 steel guitar, such as a Remington Steelmaster.
Then you could use 2 different tunings such as A6 and E13.
Jim Burden makes great stainless and hard chrome bullet bars.
b0b has some great tutorial material for sale on the forum - http://pedalsteelmusic.com/instruction/nonpedal.html

No need to be nervous or overwhelmed - it's fun at every level. Just take it a bit at a time.
My Steel Guitar Basics DVD can get you started . .

Posted: **1 Oct 2008 2:19 pm**

Hi Rich,

I too are a relative newby to lap steel. I bought a Chandler 6 string and in retrospect think now I would have preferred an 8 stringer.

I thought I wanted to learn C6 tuning but found playing mostly old country stuff that I like E and E7 better. These tunings are also quite intuitive for this old 6 string player.

Paul

PS: Are you in north or south CA?

Posted: **1 Oct 2008 2:24 pm**

Hi Rich,

I'm a relative newcomer to this forum as well, and some of the best advice I've seen here is to first ask yourself what kind of music you're interested in, and what you want to play. That should help determine your initial direction.

Having said that, there is a wealth of info on this forum, and these guys made me feel welcome from day 1. You took the right step in coming here.
Oh, and if you don't have Andy Volk's lap steel book then you need to get it. The interviews alone will get you immersed into the who's and why's of steeling.

Posted: **1 Oct 2008 6:16 pm**

Hi Rich, I spent the last year learning to play 8 string nonpedal lap steel. I started with a 6 string but before long decided that was a mistake and went to 8 string. I like it much better and it is no harder to learn on. As for guitars I wound up with a Remington S8 and a Georgeboards S8. They are both great guitars and you can't go wrong with either one of them. The Georgeboards are the cheapest of the 2 if you stick with a lap rather than console. You can add legs later but then you will have as much in it as the Remington which is a console and comes with legs. Nearly all my learning time has been spent on the Remington as I only rescently purchased the Georgeboards guitar. I can't say enough good things about the Remington both to learn on and to play from now on. One other thing, I got brave about a month ago and started messing around with a pedal steel. I don't see how anyone can learn to play a psg without first knowing how to play a nonpedal although a lot of players start with the pedals.

Posted: **2 Oct 2008 4:42 am**

guys...thanks so much for the responses and the info!
i've got some of my other toys that have been gathering dust up for sale here locally that will likely fund a steel guitar. i'll check out some of the instructional stuff you guys have mentioned.

paul, i'm in southern california, in Long Beach, about 40 miles south of L.A.

john, i guess i want to learn more of a country style primarily. i do like hawaiian stuff, but i spent some time playing ukelele with hawaiian tunes and i'm so unfamiliar with the melodies and songs, that it was hard to learn whole songs and feel like i could 'make them mine'. Musically, my own stuff is a strange brew of electronic/ambient/rock/downtempo at the moment. if one likes, they can listen to it here: www.myspace.com/asopaquemusic For the last 5 years, i've been learning more theory and the last year has been exploring blues guitar. Sometimes i feel like an idiot about how little i know, but i'm trying to realize this is just a journey and the goal is to have fun! Oh, and then there's the last 3 years of being a bassist for an instrumental surf rock trio. jeepers, i'm all over the map!

thanks again, everyone. looking forward to becoming a steel player!

rich

Posted: **2 Oct 2008 7:42 am**

I'd say start cheap. You may not like it or "get it". Get one of the ubiquitous artisan type steels from anywhere online, hop down to your local all purpose music shop to try out some bars (if you can; I've found that most shops, even Guitar Center, carry at least a Stevens Bar), grab a plastic thumbpick and a couple metals fingerpicks from the same place, and pick up Scotty's "Basic C6th Course" from the man himself:

http://www.scottysmusic.com/scotyc601.htm

(it's the Mel Bay course). Grad a decent set of strings from Scotty as well.

Sit down, read the book, listen to the CD, and start steelin'. I read here on the SGF that someone said Scotty's book doesn't discuss "how to hold the bar", which shouldn't be too much of a challenge. There's not too many ways to hold it and get sound out of the guitar. Good luck,

Blake Wilson

Posted: **2 Oct 2008 10:33 am**

Blake,

thanks for the advice. sorry to be a dummy, but what does 'ubiquitous artisan type steels' mean? can you be more specific?

thanks,
Rich

Posted: **2 Oct 2008 10:43 am**

The Artisan steels are one of the current style of cheapos on the market. Kinda like getting a tricycle when you really wanted a StingRay...

Blake, I gotta disagree with you on the bar issue somewhat.
While there are probably many ways to hold a bullet bar, there is really only one way to get the most out of it, and that's the way Jerry Byrd taught it. Anything else, and you're never going to excell to where you could have been. Not to say that plenty havn't done it their own way and become famous and widely respected.

Posted: **2 Oct 2008 12:07 pm**

Carroll Hale wrote:if you have an "old and tired" reg guitar....
raise the nut...get some new strings...(right guage) and tune up to GBDGBD (top-bottom).....get after it..
after a day or week.....you can then decide if youreally want to invest in a good guitar...
the sound aint the same....tuning and playig is very similar......go for it....this is what I did...and now have 2 dobros..and a lapsteel....and an old converted silvertone hollow body electric.....converted to lap and C6th tuning...
I just love this stuff.....wish I had discovered it 50 yrs ago.....I might be able to play by now...

Carroll, isn't that GBDGBD bottom to top?

I second the recommendation of slapping a nut raiser on a relatively unused guitar. After doing that for a while I decided it was time to buy a "real" steel guitar.

Ron, I learned how to hold the bar from Bob Brozman, which I think is similar to JB. Either way, I discovered I was doing it "wrong" before Bob showed me his way (and after I got rid of my Scheerhorn bar).

Posted: **2 Oct 2008 12:15 pm**

Lucky you never mentioned Brozman around Jerry! I did, but that's another story.

Bob is a prime example of doing it all wrong but making it work, and quite well in his instance.

It's been a while, but from what I remember of how Bob holds the bar, it's not exactly as Byrd did. And I'm pretty sure he doesn't handle it, ala slants for instance, in the Byrd manner.

Posted: **2 Oct 2008 1:06 pm**

ok, please tell me what a 'nut raiser' is. will this effect the existing intonation of the guitar? i've got three electrics, two strats and a nice les paul...all have been professionally setup by the local guitar tech.

is this process something that i should do to some old beater guitar? i would rather wait and save my pennies for an actual instrument if i need to mod any one of my guitars too much which is going to require a trip or two to the tech.

ooh my. Bob Brozman. I saw him at the National Resonator booth at NAMM a few years ago during a stint where i had passes through one of my clients. I was completely spellbound watching him! He rocks! His 'Live Now' recording is one of my staple listening pleasures.

rich

Posted: **2 Oct 2008 1:18 pm**

It looks like this:

It fits over the existing nut and raises the strings above the frets so that you don't hit the frets while playing.

Posted: **3 Oct 2008 5:07 am**

John Bushouse wrote:
Carroll Hale wrote:if you have an "old and tired" reg guitar....
raise the nut...get some new strings...(right guage) and tune up to GBDGBD (top-bottom).....get after it..
after a day or week.....you can then decide if youreally want to invest in a good guitar...
the sound aint the same....tuning and playig is very similar......go for it....this is what I did...and now have 2 dobros..and a lapsteel....and an old converted silvertone hollow body electric.....converted to lap and C6th tuning...
I just love this stuff.....wish I had discovered it 50 yrs ago.....I might be able to play by now...
Carroll, isn't that GBDGBD bottom to top?
...well, I think GBDGBD from top to bottom is what I use.....it may be wrong...but that is the way I have it tuned.....seems to work ok for me...but, hey I am old and forgetful. ...maybe that is why I am slow to learn... .
I second the recommendation of slapping a nut raiser on a relatively unused guitar. After doing that for a while I decided it was time to buy a "real" steel guitar.

Ron, I learned how to hold the bar from Bob Brozman, which I think is similar to JB. Either way, I discovered I was doing it "wrong" before Bob showed me his way (and after I got rid of my Scheerhorn bar).

Posted: **3 Oct 2008 5:13 am**

Richard Atkinson wrote:ok, please tell me what a 'nut raiser' is. will this effect the existing intonation of the guitar? i've got three electrics, two strats and a nice les paul...all have been professionally setup by the local guitar tech.

is this process something that i should do to some old beater guitar? i would rather wait and save my pennies for an actual instrument if i need to mod any one of my guitars too much which is going to require a trip or two to the tech..
.NUT RAISER.(sounds kinda nasty.. ) actually, the first one I used was homemade...a piece of hardwood...sanded/shaped with my pocket knife and a rasp.....used small file to make string notches.....worked ok until I could get a metal one...a fellow picker of mine and a deer hunter used a piece of deer antler...shaped/formed to fit and it really did have a great sound...I have heard that bone has also been used....(go buy one..less than $10 at the local music shop)......
ooh my. Bob Brozman. I saw him at the National Resonator booth at NAMM a few years ago during a stint where i had passes through one of my clients. I was completely spellbound watching him! He rocks! His 'Live Now' recording is one of my staple listening pleasures.

rich

Posted: **3 Oct 2008 8:17 am**

re: the right and/or wrong way to hold a bar:

I said in my post that's there's basically one way to hold a bar (regardless of style - bullet or rail, glass or metal, coated or not, and even the old fashioned flat bars) and make the guitar (regardless of type: lap, resonator, pedal or a guitar raised up with a higher nut) sound right. I still stand by this, with a basic (but important) exception, which is Hindustani-style slide guitar. For every other style of steel guitar, the bar is secured between the middle finger and thumb, and the index finger occupies a position on top of the bar with varying degrees of preference towards either the middle finger or thumb, or rides right along the top. The remaining ring and pinky, and even the middle, fingers dampen the strings behind the bar.

AFAIK, holding it any other way (except, again, for Hindustani slide) will not produce the steel guitar sound that we're talking about. If you hold it like an ice cream cone, you're not going to be able to produce the sounds. So, once this basic "rule" is understood (which I think is axiomatic in the learning process: put 10 folks in a room with steel guitars, play them some records so they know the general idea of the intended sounds, and they'll figure it out) everything else is style, preference, intuition, and/or dogma. For single note lines, I also think its a basic impulse to raise up the bar and not touch unwanted strings. How you do this is up to you.

Because of the essentially melody-based nature of Hindustani or Carnatik music (taken together as "Indian Music"), players in the tradition of Vishwa Mohan Bhatt and Debashish Battacharya use a long, thin bar held almost like a pencil and typically depressing only one string at a time. They don't, for the most part, play chords. The strumming hand is picking out drones, but they aren't fretted (or barred). So, if you're playing in this style, you would be "holding the bar wrong" so to speak if you're holding it so as to produce the chords and harmonic structures we associate with the styles of Byrd, Douglas, Hoopii, etc. Of course, there's nothing wrong with making up your own syncretic creation of styles.

Wow, I didn't mean to write an essay. But my point is that looking at every film or photo of players known and obscure, and watching others play live, I've never seen anything that deviates substantially from one basic way of holding the bar. This basic way is the "right" way, determined by the nature and ergononics o of the instrument and the bars themselves, the loose guidelines of the sounds intended to be produced, and the general consensus of the players involved. Although its proper for a separate topic, if someone can point us towards meaningfully different ways to hold the bar than I've discussed here, I'd love to see some pictures or descriptions. I'd particular like to see (and more importantly, hear) "wrong" ways to hold the bar that still give us "the sound".

Regards,

Blake

Posted: **3 Oct 2008 8:40 am**

Not really disagreeing with you Blake - just a classic case of the exception who proves the rule, is Bobby Koefer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byorV-Z-Pzo
and no, I doubt anyone would actually recommend following his example, great as he is

Nick

Posted: **3 Oct 2008 8:51 am**

Well there ya go! Certainly nothing to stop you from playing like that with a flat bar, eh? Too much, thanks for the link/video, Nick.

And sure, if there is a "right way" among many to hold it, then that ain't it!

Blake

Posted: **5 Oct 2008 7:39 pm**

Hi Rich, not meaning to hijack or change the subject but I saw this:

Oh, and then there's the last 3 years of being a bassist for an instrumental surf rock trio

I have to ask, which trio? I know a few people in the area who play that..
(And actually not a real quantum leap from that into steel instrumentals)

Best,
John

The Steel Guitar Forum

Newbie...Where to start?

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Aloha, Richard, and welcome aboard!

C6 lap steel

ha ha...