What 8 string tuning do I start with?

Jeremy Threlfall · Post by **Jeremy Threlfall** » 18 Sep 2008 5:20 pm

I am a fledgling (like a shivering little bald bird on the edge of death) E9 pedal player wanting to expand my theory knowledge, chord vocabulary and dexterity.

I have bought an 8 string lap (a very beautiful New Yorker style from Tom Pettingill) for the purpose of (a) achieving the above and (b) having some fun (learning to swing a bit more)

I am wondering what tuning I should start with - wether I should aim to pick one tuning and stick with it, or aim to experiment with a number of different tunings.

I always assumed that C6 would be the go, but having looked into it for the first time over the last couple of days, I have discovered the much wider range of commonly used tunings.

One of the deciding factors will be the availability of teaching materials (I would prefer to source these from B0b's stock on the forum if possible).

I know these are my decisions, and my limititations (which I don't expect anyone else to understand) will determine how much I can learn from different approaches, but I thought I would seek out your views on where I should start.

So, does anyone have a view on how how I might best set out on this particular little adventure?

My apologies if this has been done to death on a previous thread, in which case a kind soul might direct me to that thread? I've printed out and read the page from Brad's Page of Steel and John McGann's stuff, but that is the extent of the material I have seen.

Hopefully any ensuing discussion will be of value to others too.

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 18 Sep 2008 6:41 pm

If you've already been playing the E9-PSG, I would sugest that the full A6 tuning might be a good place to start! Lo to Hi:
E/F#~A~C#~E~F#~A~C#~E However I'm not sure about the availability of teaching-materials for this tuning!

Jeremy Threlfall · Post by **Jeremy Threlfall** » 18 Sep 2008 7:06 pm

Thanks for your reply, John.

Why would the A6 tuning suit an E9 player, particularly?

I notice that the A6 is similar in layout to the "High C6", so perhaps teaching materials won't be a problem, if they are available for that tuning (I can transpose)

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 18 Sep 2008 7:20 pm

The reasoning behind suggesting the A6 Tuning is because, if you've played E9-PSG, you've already been playing in the A6-Tuning with (2)-pedals engaged and are somewhat familiar with neck-positions! Another reason for A6 rather than C6 is that there is only the open-string position for the lower C-chord. It just seems like a more player-friendly tuning that C6! I have a sneaking-suspicion that that might have been one inspiration for putting the C# on the 6th. str. of the C6-Tuning! (to get that lower C-chord)

Jeremy Threlfall · Post by **Jeremy Threlfall** » 18 Sep 2008 7:39 pm

Thanks again, John. That makes sense.

edited : to remove silly chart that causes more confusion than its worth

Jeremy Threlfall · Post by **Jeremy Threlfall** » 18 Sep 2008 8:19 pm

yes, well the AB pedals down E9 becomes a A6 with the "5-3-1-6" type pattern, I can see that now

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 19 Sep 2008 8:02 am

It just occured to me this morning. I believe Herbie Remington offers A6 teaching-material. I think A6 has always been his main tuning. You can find out more by going to www.remingtonsteelguitars.com

Gerard Ventura · Post by **Gerard Ventura** » 20 Sep 2008 10:37 am

I've found this tuning, which Bobbie Seymour uses on those wonderful You Tube videos where he's playing an old (restored?) Bigsby without pedals, works very well for both mellow beautiful sounds, but you have the pentatonics for blues on the inner strings. Don't know if this is the actual key he uses, but here's the pattern, low to high-
FACE GACE (easy way to remember

)
using gauges of around 0.58 to .11.
Very similiar to the Remington tuning, which would be GACE GACE.

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 20 Sep 2008 8:15 pm

Some of us(?) call this tuning: F~A~C~E~G~A~C~E = C6/F Maj.7

Jeremy Threlfall · Post by **Jeremy Threlfall** » 20 Sep 2008 11:11 pm

Thanks again for your inputs

The FAGECAGE tuning is what is on the guitar, and what I guess I will be starting with (string gauges 52-14)

I guess I am going to have to collect a range of string gauges if I am going to experiment with different tunings ....

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 20 Sep 2008 11:32 pm

If you have a string set with these gauges:
.014p
.017p
.020p
.024w
.030w
.036w
.042w
.054w, there are quite a number of tunings that you can experiment with!
C6____A6___E7_B11_C6/A7_C13_D9
E_____E____E__E___E_____E___E
C_____C#___B__C#__C_____C___C
A_____A____G#_A___A_____A___A
G_____F#___E__F#__G_____G___F#
E_____E____D__D#__E_____E___E
C_____C#___B__C#__C#____C___C
A_____A____G#_A___A_____Bb__A
E/F/G_E/F#__E__F#__F#/G__G___E/F#/G
and many more!

Guy Cundell · Post by **Guy Cundell** » 21 Sep 2008 12:20 am

I didn't think that the chart was confusing, Jeremy. You need some chordal knowledge to interpret it but you need that also to deal with this instrument. I am glad I downloaded it before you deleted it.

I have started fooling with the Leon McAuliffe E9 tuning and loving it. I am wondering whether anyone can tell me if Leon's bottom E is the same as regular guitar bottom E or an octave above.

Jeremy Threlfall · Post by **Jeremy Threlfall** » 21 Sep 2008 4:59 am

Guy

Thanks for the vote of confidence

I removed it because it was a bit misleading and might have confused anyone more ignorant than me (granted: not likely at this stage)

I started by trying to group tunings by the order of intervals, for example the A6, Junior Browns C13 and the Amaj/min7 all have 5,3,root and 6 on adjacent strings (the top four, high to low).

Then I had another 'group' of tunings, for example E6, Bobby Blacks C6/A7 and LeonMcAulliffe's E13 which had the root, 6,5,3 on adjacent strings (high to low).

What I missed was that the '5,3,1,6' group also had a '1,6,5,3' set of adjacent strings, rendering my 'groupings' rather meaningless.

Nonetheless, it was a useful exercise for me to write those tunings down with the intervals next to each other to see how they compare.

What was interesting was to compare the intervals on the 'combination' tunings, like for example the Bobby Black A7, which in C goes:

3, 1, 6, 5, 3, b2, 6, 7 (top to bottom),and in A goes:

5, b3, 1, b7, 5, 3, 1, 2

I will put the chart back up - without the silly groupings (tommorrow at work - its on the work computer

)

Jeremy

Gerard Ventura · Post by **Gerard Ventura** » 21 Sep 2008 5:23 am

John Bechtel wrote:Some of us(?) call this tuning: F~A~C~E~G~A~C~E = C6/F Maj.7

Thanks John--
the other neck on my D8, similar gauges and low to hi is F~A~Eb~G~Bb~C~D~F
What would you call that?

Between these 2 tunings, I get a lot of chordal options for jazz.

Rick Alexander · Post by **Rick Alexander** » 21 Sep 2008 5:35 am

Jeremy, A6 tuning is a good place to start.
As Big John pointed out, you can easily retune to C6 without changing strings.
TUFF FUN TAB that he mentioned is a good learning tool -
We also have the Steel Guitar Basics DVD -
and the PIECES OF STEEL Course - .
b0b carries these items on the forum - http://pedalsteelmusic.com/instruction/nonpedal.html

For tuning charts and recommended string gauges - http://rickalexander.com/BigSteel/Tunings.html

Guy Cundell · Post by **Guy Cundell** » 21 Sep 2008 5:47 am

The "combination" tuning is of interest to me. I have been working with the Joachim Murphy tuning for a year or so. It is the C6 with C# on the 2nd to bottom string and a high B on the bottom. You get most of C6 on the top 6 strings but with an added bonus on the bottom 5 strings. There is much available with a straight bar.

I guess it is a variant of C6/A7. It gives you a secondary dominant on the 6th degree of the route which is half way to a I VI7 II7 V progression. The high B provides the 9th for the A dominant chord and thus contains a C# half diminished chord, very useful for minor ii Vs. There is also an Em7 and a C# dim.

I got onto this tuning after looking at the Murphey interview in Andy Volk's book (a great resource) and listening to some Joachim Muphy solos that were available a while ago on a page linked to Brad's Page of Steel. I think they have been removed now. John McGann's book of Murphey transcriptions also gives an insight into some bar slant techniques.

This tuning is wild. No wonder Joachim would detune his steel when leaving the bandstand so that other players couldn't sneak a listen while he was gone.

The Leon Murphy tuning feels pretty good but I have only dabbled as yet. I am wondering about the B# that appears instead of the B natural in Andy Volk's interview with both Leon and Cindy Cash Dollar. Is that a widely used variant? It sounds pretty strange at first listen but so did the Joachim Murphey.

Stephan Miller · Post by **Stephan Miller** » 21 Sep 2008 10:36 am

Guy-- that B# is meant to be B natural. And the 8th string E is the same as the 6th string E on a standard guitar.

Gerard-- noticed your tuning is identical to McAuliffe's E13 except the 4th string is a half step higher, and then the whole tuning is raised by a half step. I guess I'd call it F13/9sus4. Nice-- it's rare that an 8-string tuning includes both a dominant 7/9 and a major 7/9.

James Harrison · Post by **James Harrison** » 21 Sep 2008 9:16 pm

I was just told to not come back to a jam, by the owner W.G. I told him there is no B# and no E#. Am I wrong? Is there some places where C and F are used as B# and E#? I learned music in the 1940s and this was not taught to me.
James

Guy Cundell · Post by **Guy Cundell** » 22 Sep 2008 5:50 am

Unfortunately, James, old WG got it right.
The key of C major has the notes C,D,E,F,G,A and B.
The key of C# major, a semitone higher, has the notes C#,D#,E#,F#,G#,A# and B#.

The notes B# and C have the same sound but they are written differently in different keys. They are "enharmonic equivalents" in the same way that Gb major chord sounds the same as F# major.

Why? To avoid writing both a C natural and C# in the same key. It makes it difficult to read.

This often doesn't make a lot of sense to ear players and it is a mistake often made. Here in the beautiful city of Adelaide we have a record store called B Sharp Records, a pun with the mistaken idea that B sharp doesn't exist and I think that was the reason that Homer Simpson called his barbershop quartet the B Sharps.

Moral of the story: Stay out of C# major.

Billy Tonnesen · Post by **Billy Tonnesen** » 22 Sep 2008 2:33 pm

IMHO, it's pretty hard to go wrong with either the A6th tuning or E13th with a G# on top. It's even better if you have a double neck with these tunings as they complement each other and give you a good range especially if you have both necks on at the same time and learn to move between the two necks as you are playing a song and the range of the song or intrumental changes. When I played non-pedal steel I had three necks on at the same time and moved with ease between all three necks. The third neck was Herb Remington's inverted tuning. (only one wound middle E string in the middle)

Chris Scruggs · Post by **Chris Scruggs** » 23 Sep 2008 8:24 am

As an E9 player it will be good to be familiar with C6 tuning in case you ever go to a D-10 pedal steel. So many younger pedal players can't seem to grasp C6 once they learn E9 first. I think the majority of them would have an easier time if they took C6 up as a non pedal tuning first, as that is was it originally was.

If a steel player learns first on E9 with pedals, he learns day one to play an E chord and press a pedal to move the chord up to A, the next chord. So it stands to reason what a lot of E9 pedal guys don't get is this: Even on a pedal steel, C6 is played ON TOP of the guitar, not underneath. In other words. the C6 pedals enhance what C6 already offers which is a very user friendly STATIONARY tuning. If more chromatic E9 players approached C6 this way, I think we'd have a lot more D-10 players out there today.

Good luck with the New Yorker and welcome to the world of straight steel. And as far as tunings go, you've just opened a very enjoyable Pandora's Box!

Chris Scruggs

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 23 Sep 2008 9:09 am

Jeremy Threlfall · Post by **Jeremy Threlfall** » 23 Sep 2008 4:51 pm

Chris Scruggs wrote:Even on a pedal steel, C6 is played ON TOP of the guitar, not underneath.

Chris Scruggs

I suspected as much, watching how the C6 guys do it, and as I say, I have taken this on to learn some dexterity amongst a bunch of other reasons

thank you everyone for you inputs

Rick Alexanders tuniung charts were a great guide to tunings that go together, string gauge-wise.

The guitar has FACEGACE on it now, and I think I have some A6 instruction material, so I will be starting out with that.

Jeremy Threlfall · Post by **Jeremy Threlfall** » 23 Sep 2008 4:54 pm

Drew

I'll have to try your link later - its not working at the moment

Jeremy Threlfall · Post by **Jeremy Threlfall** » 23 Sep 2008 5:53 pm

Drew - working now. I'll be listening to that. Nicely done.