The Steel Guitar Forum

Sitting here listening to "The Very Best of Travis Tritt" in the CD player. In thumbing through the liner notes, on the song "Can I Trust You With My Heart" (circa. 1992), they have Terry Crisp credited with playing Baritone Steel on that cut.

What is a Baritone steel ??

Here is a quote from the Franklin website, apparently one of the Franklin ideas.Go to the link below, there is a picture of "the box" Don't know if that is the baritone steel.



"Was instrumental in bringing several new musical sounds to the forefront of Country Music, including the Pedabro, the acoustic lap steel nicknamed "The Box" by Mac Macanally, and the Baritone steel."

http://www.paul-franklin.com/PaulFrankl ... index.html

Here's how the Baritone Steel came about-Paul Franklin tuned the pedal steel down a few octaves lower than what it usually is, and according to the Franklin Website, it says it makes the steel sound like an electric bass.

Brett

Hmm. Very interesting. Thanks for the info. This was the first that I'd heard of such a thing.

Thanks Brett!

Not to detract anything from Paul, but as I remember...the original idea of a baritone steel (tuned down an octave) came from Herbie Remington over 50 years ago. He had one neck of his Stringmaster strung up with all wound strings, and tuned down an octave. He played one of his more famous instrumentals, called "Fiddlesteel", using that tuning.

Yup.......forgot about that one Donny.Anyone have that track by any chance?I haven't heard that one in a long time.

Ron

If I were going to label these things, I would call an instrument an octave below a standard steel guitar tuning a bass steel guitar, just as the bass guitar is an octave below the bottom strings of a guitar. A baritone guitar is not an octave below regular guitar, but only a few steps. By the same token, a baritone steel guitar would be somewhere in between a regular a standard steel tuning and an octave lower, say A9 (below E9) or G6 (below C6). This is also the way they label other instruments, such as sax and clarinet.

So then, when tuning down an octave, are the same gauge strings used (just tuned down)? Or, are the string gauges/types changed as well to create a "baritone" steel?

Apparently the only tune Herb did that is close to this is: "DEEP BEAT" with a very low A note on the 8th string of his steel guitar.

ROGER

Mark Trzepacz wrote:So then, when tuning down an octave, are the same gauge strings used (just tuned down)? Or, are the string gauges/types changed as well to create a "baritone" steel?

No, the strings would be floppy and loose. You need to use heavier guages.

Also, ideally you would lengthen the scale length. If you lower the pitch substantially just by using thicker gauge strings, you get clunky tone with unacceptable sustain and poor overtones and harmonics. That's why bass and baritone guitars have longer scale lengths, and why pianos and harps have a curved bridge that provides longer lengths for lower strings.

Hey Mark,This might be of interest to you.A few years ago either Guitar Player or Vintage guitar did an article on the guitar collection of the late John Entwistle of the Who and he owned a proto type Fender Bass lap steel I think that the scale was either 32"or 34" but you might want to search that out.Stu

A "Fender Bass Lap Steel" huh? Now that's pretty interesting. Actually, you've given me an idea to try playing my Bass guitar with my bar and picks to see what comes out. Just for fun of course.

Mark,As far as I know Fender only built one.I bet with a slide you can get some tuba sounds,Stu

After the Fender four necked steel came out Noel Boggs was playing one and he had the inside neck all big guage heavy wound strings for a bass neck. I don't recall him really using it much except to demonstrate it to us fellow musicians in So. Calif.

I picked with a guy that had the 2nd neck an octave low. Some of the guys around Dallas will probably remember him, Tommy Bollinger. That was his next to last guitar. He went back to a single. He sure got some different but nice sounds out of that baritone when he used it. I think weight was the reason he went back to a single.

Has anyone ever tried an electronic detuner? I know the Line 6 guitars can electonically detune and play as a baritone without restringing or physically retuning the guitar.

Although I own the Fender 400 in the picture, my main instrument is a Danelectro baritone guitar. I tune it down a 5th, so my open E is actually an open A, so I always play in the key of the 5-chord when playing a standard number chart. (some people tune theirs to B) Thinking of a standard string quartet with violin, viola cello and bass, the Baritone guitar (or steel) fills the tonality that would (in a string quartet) be covered by the cello.

A number of years ago, Chandler made a prototype baritone lap steel. It was pretty cool. In the couple of hours or so it took me to decide that I wanted it, Robbie Turner snatched it up. No idea if he still has it.

Webley Edwards introduced it on the Hawaii Calls shows WAY before the timeline you're all giving..

Donny Hinson wrote:Not to detract anything from Paul, but as I remember...the original idea of a baritone steel (tuned down an octave) came from Herbie Remington over 50 years ago. He had one neck of his Stringmaster strung up with all wound strings, and tuned down an octave. He played one of his more famous instrumentals, called "Fiddlesteel", using that tuning.

Every Stringmaster "Quad" was available from day one, strung up with the bass strings on one neck, so were some of the three neck ones..but that was 1954 onwards..

The Magnatones used on the Hawaii Calls show were the first to popularize the sound, and were featured on many recordings. I'll post some examples when I get the albums out and convert them to mp3. Maybe later today..

Dave,

I believe Baritone would be the proper label for an E9 tuning steel set up one octave lower. The lowest string would be B which puts it in the same range as a baritone guitar (which are sometimes tuned to a low B but usually to a low A).

Even still, the low B string isn't the root of the tuning, so the 8th string E note (same as the lowest string on a guitar) would be (in my opinion) the string to determine the register of the steel.

As for scale length and string floppiness, I believe a standard scale length would work just fine. It works for C6 tuning, and the lowest note on C6 (with pedal 8 pressed) is an A, one step below the low B string on E9 if it were tuned an octave lower.

Does anybody know what gauges are used? I would assume these gauges would work:

.026p F#
.032p Ed
.020p G#
.030w E
.038w B
.042w G#
.054w F#
.056w E
.060w D
.070w B

-CS

Cris, the problem with your reasoning is that you are assuming 10-string E9 steel is exactly parallel with regular guitar, so if dropping the notes an octave overlaps the range of baritone guitar, then that should be a baritone steel. But that is not the case. E9 steel is about half an octave higher than regular guitar. The highest note is G#, a 3rd above the top E of guitar; and the lowest note is B, a 5th above the bottom E of guitar. So of course, if E9 is higher than regular guitar, dropping it an octave will be higher than bass guitar, and seems to overlap the baritone guitar range. But that’s just because the bottom of E9 steel is toward the middle of regular guitar.

It helps the reasoning to go ahead and fill out the lower octave of guitar, as extended E9 does, so the lower octaves of guitar and ext. E9 are parallel. If you lower ext. E9 an octave, it is parallel to bass guitar, not baritone guitar.

So, if you are going to call E9 dropped an octave “baritone,” just because it overlaps with baritone guitar, then you’d have to call 10-string E9 “alto,” because it would overlap an alto guitar tuned say a 4th higher than regular guitar (A).

These terms are just conventions, and I don’t know that there are any formal definitions. But generally the names go down by a 4th or a 5th. So on regular guitar, if you drop the Es down to B or A, that’s baritone, and if you drop a whole octave, that’s bass. That’s also the way the terms go for horns.

On the other hand, if you ignore how much the tuning is dropped, and just consider a particular range, say in relation to piano or voices, or in this case baritone guitar. Then I guess you could call anything overlapping the baritone range “baritone,” regardless of how much the tuning is dropped. But this would seem kind of funny if you consider the roots. The baritone guitar would have A or B as the root, but the baritone steel would have E as the root, a 4th or 5th apart. With 10 strings the steel root would be above the bari guitar root; but on 12 string steel it would be below the bari guitar root - in bass territory.

As for the string gauges, depends on what you want in terms of sustain and overtone characteristics. That low C on C6 and low B on E9/B6 unis is a real clunker. It has substantially less sustain than the other strings. It is a marginally workable compromise, because on steel, the scale length has to remain the same across the neck (unlike pianos and harps). If you are going to drop the whole tuning down, there is no reason to keep the same scale. Imagine dropping the tuning of a regular guitar down an octave simply by using really heavy gauge strings. Sure, you could do it. But compared to a real bass guitar with its longer scale, the tone and sustain would suck.

The labeling is equally confusing in the 6-string world. a baritone guitar is usually a 6 string tuned to guitar tuning starting with B on the 6th string. A tenor guitar is commonly a 4-string guitar tuned like a tenor banjo. That leaves the regular 6-string with no "slot" at all.
To me, following the logic with 6-stringers an E9 type baritone would be a B9. U-12 could be seen as a regular, baritone and bassbaritone combined.
I agree with David on the scale lenght issue which is why I had a 27" lap steel custom made. I use a standard dobro high bass tuning tuned down to D or C on that. If I would order one now I`d make it a 29" or 30" scale.