The Steel Guitar Forum

Nothing to do with steel this time. I need an opinion about how to get the best tone from a bass guitar running through a sound system. I am trying a 5 string with an active pickup and I cannot seem to be able to get the clear full thump sound I want.
Any advice on the best bass guitar to use, should it have active or passive pickup. I know the sound system has something to do with it. We use two different systems according to what size area we are playing in.

If you don't have an amp on the stage, it's a losing battle. I've worked with a few bassists who thought they could save themselves from bringing an amp to the gig and go straight into the PA, and let me tell you, it don't work. I'll only let a bassist get away with that if it's an emergency. If they're just being lazy, they're gone! Besides, I despise the sound of a bass going DI.

This goes for steel as well. With electric instruments, your amp is part of the instrument! The PA is NOT an adequate substitute for a dedicated instrument amp. This is true for keyboards as well as guitar and bass.

I also apply this same stricture to acoustic guitar when playing with a full band. If the guitar is using a pickup, it needs its own amp.

I agree with Twayn. There's no way you're going to be able to get a good bass sound by running DI through the PA. Use a good amp, dial in a good sound and mike'r up.

The one time I had to do that (Blew up 2 GK 800RBs in the same gig, sheesh!) I couldn't hear myself worth jack. I ended up parking myself in front of the mains so I could hear what I was doing. Unpleasant to say the least.

Of course, part of your problem could be the bass, though. I've found that many 5 stringers with active pickups sound like poop compared to a olde fashioned P Bass or a J Bass.

I've worked with bass players that used a POD from Line 6 and it worked out well.
Line 6 makes a model made for Bass.
The band I was in then didn't use any amps on anything. We used in ear monitors.
Steel, guitar and bass went directly into mixer.

I missed my amp and am now with a band where I can use it and I'm very happy doing so.
It is the best way to monitor yourself and have tone /volume control without a soundguy who thinks he knows what he is doing half the time.

I think the person running the sound system has a lot to do with it. Have someone play your bass and eq the system to your taste. My 2 cents. Ken

In my experience, the best effect for Bass is a really big power amp. I like to think of it as the way you would power a bulldozer, sure you can get by with a small block, but to really do the work you want a diesel. I typically carry wattage roughly equivalent to the whole PA. I think you are unlikely to get satisfactory tone running your Bass into the PA alone. My preferred axe for the last 15 years has active electronics and does well through a mixer, but there's just no susbstitute for wattage (I like to start around 500 watts when playing out) even in low volume gigs.

It's in the hands and, yes, I'm serious.

FWIW

Look at Ampeg bass amps. There is one called the BA-115 or something close to that.

My reasons for recommending this amp for the kind of work you are doing:
It is a single cab with a 15" speaker. It will fill a good sized club with wonderful bass sound, it is engineered for the low B string. There are tunable ports on the back of the cab. It is portable, has wheels.
It is the source for wonderful tone and, has a DI so you can also line out whenever you need to.
You and the band can enjoy good bass sound on stage, and also run your sound thru a mixing board for PA or recording.

Traditional country, rockabilly, blue grass, and western swing sounds came from an upright bass with E as the lowest open string. Without the bow, there is a pronounced thump with little sustain. Some electric basses have this sound also.
Some bands require this traditional sound.

I like the G&L 5 string with the strings thru the body for sustain when I need it. I play more than just country. I don't need or want an active pickup. But some guitars come with it. I always turn mine off. Always a choice.

Tone comes from good strings, too. Lots of choices here. I like Thomastik flatwounds.
YMMV

R2

I've played a bit of bass over the years

I found - never set your rig up for 4 ohms. I always ran it at 8, and I had a series lead that enabled a second cab at 16 ohms

That ensures a sound on stage that cuts through. the PA is another matter .......

I have a 400 W Laney head, so I have the power for that.

I would only do this with a robust PA equipped with subwoofers and a good crossover, and even then it is only OK. I have active EMG PUs, and roll a lot of the highs off.

A Bass Pod into a PA with 500watts powering the subs will work in a lot of places.

I have an Ampeg B5R with a BXT 115 (4 ohm) and 8 basses. The one has sounds best is my Modulus Q6. I don't think you can ever get a great bass sound through a PA unless it's a monster system. Just my opinion.

My choice is the Fender 400 pro combo with 2x10s and a horn. Best sounding portable bass rig I've come across in years.

One thing is strange about this....even though I agree, the best bass-sound comes from dedicated bassamps.
Most PA companies wire it direct from the bass, into a DI straight to PA and a link from the DI to the Bass amp. Making the bass amp nothing else than a Monitor for the bass player. It is not often Basscabinets are miced! Not here in Norway anyway....
So the sound that is in the PA and all wedges are the DI sound!

I have played bass through PA systems, the trick is
to have a good preamp with EQ and preferably a tube in it.

I have played the Line Six box through 35,000 watts,
using a 6 string bass active pickups and just a
small floor wedge for presence. I USED at least 30,000 watts
on a few lines too. Low be with chords on top.
Sounded killer.

And have used a simple tube preamp in small systems for small rooms.
8" woofers in 8 places around the room,
1-2 yards from listeners.

You will hear yourself a touch better with a small amp,
but a preamp vs a DI will improve things immensely.
But it also can drive the other guys louder.
When you're right for the room , you're too loud for them.

Most studio bass recordings are direct these days,
some with amp and direct too, but mostly in the control room direct, since bass will leak into
EVERYBODY's mics in the big room.

One other problem with NOT playing through a
small speaker distributed sound system in a small club.
The other players will be coming out of many speakers all around the room at low level,
but you will ONLY be good for the ONE place
your amp is at.
Across the room you are unheard.
Much better to eq a nice sound, plug it in,
and be with them all around the room.

A tube preamp with 3 band EQ w/ swept mids
and some bass cut off frequency boost/reduce switching choices
should make any small system sound ok.

I use an Ampeg SVT4 Pro bi-amped through Ampeg BXT series 1X15' and 4X10" cabinets with a Musicman Stingray 5.
Dude, that thumps. At least on stage...
The soundperson, takes the signal from my line out and probably crucifies it through the mains. I can't tell. The drummer and I are really happy though!

What Twayne said. I was mainly a bass player for about 4 years, and refused to run direct. I'd stand my ground and eventually the sound guy would finally fold and at least let me use my SWR Baby Blue - that gave me enough control over the tone that he could run a direct-inject signal off it and not totally ruin me.

PA systems are NOT made for good bass amplification. You need so much of the power to get decent headroom hat other instruments suffer, or your bass ends up sounding like geese farts on a muggy day.

I've tried the POD units for bass and IMO they sound SO processed it's like a "cartoon bass". The only box that DOES work - but you have to spend an hour working with the board guy to get him to understand it and dial in the tone, with someone else laying your bass - is the Baggs Para Acoustic DI. It was designed for acoustic instruments but will work with everything from a 5-string electric bass to a Les Paul as well...IF you have a smart person mixing.

But it's SO rare I carry two bass amps - either a rack system with cabs or my larger SWR rig, and always my Baby Blue for JUST this type of situation - it gives me a direct box and stage amp all in one. If nothing else, I canat least control what hits the board AND what the band hears.

"No amp" stage playing is for the birds IMO. It's an attempt to give total control over levels to the sound man, which is good if he knows what he's doing - but the tone almost always suffers.

I'm inclined to agree. Playing on stage without an amp is not recommended for any instrument that's normally played with an amp. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to notice that something is missing. Somewhere along the line, big PA systems tried to go from sound re-enforcement to being ALL the sound. Normally, they fail miserably at the task. Tone suffers, separation is non existent, and the life is literally sucked out of the band and their sound.

I can't tell you how many big bands and shows I've seen where very "visually impressive" sound systems wound up sounding like crap to those in the audience. The singers, musicians and the sound-man (who were all wearing the now "trendy" ear-buds and headphones) literally had no idea how bad they sounded.

Well it really depends on the type of band
and the type and size of venue.

If you have acoustic guitar, one lead player direct,
piano in the monitors, and maybe a hand percusionist,
and they give you bass in the floor monitor
and the room is small or quite spread out,
direct is better with a good preamp,
where YOU control the tone of your instrument.

If you are playing next to a drummer, have an amp.

There are times that if you try top be
too loud in one part of the room,
you will NOT be heard in others unless you
are in the PA. Match to the stage volume,
and then send it out.

If the stage volume is just floor monitors,
then you can play through that IF you control the tone.

I played plenty of little gigs with just
a 30w battery Crate Bassbus amp w/ 8" speaker,
and a post-EQ line to the mixer.

__

I think we are getting off the point of Walter's question.

Can he get a great or at least a better
bass sound from a PA, with maybe a small monitor.
And the best ways to do that.

Not our personal favorite bass amp sounds.

I know it is possible, because I have done it.
It is not a question of how to fill a room from your amp.

It is top be used for No Amp gigs, which certainly exist.
My suggestion of a tube bass preamp with good versatile EQ
will greatly improve the sound regardless of what bass you plug in.
Old Fender, or new 6 string or upright bass.
Good eq and a warm tube sound,
will sound good in any system,
within the limits of the systems output power and speakers.

How can I say this?

Well we hear MANY, MANY basses in recordings
played with ALL other instruments in clubs sound systems.
Guess what.
If they were recorded well they sound good.
Why should a well eq'd LIVE bass sound be any different?
Volume has nothing to do with quality of sound.
(after the range of the 'loudness' control on your stereo.)
Zep's John Paul Jones, and Hag's bass player's sound good
through typical juke box systems, and that's NOT
as good as what most small clubs use these days.

__

I too prefer an amp of some size.

I HAVE 1,000W, 100W AND 30W and take them all.
But sometimes none of them are right.

Running through 8 speakers sorted around the room,
with the band in a corner listening through one,
and maybe a monitor, can not be adequately served
by ANY small bass amp near the band.

Heard well near the band and not by 75% of the room.
Try to cover more of the room, by turning up,
and the rest of the band and those near the 25%
get WAY too much bass. Just doesn't work.
All you can do is go for a good blend in the house system.


The thump is in your hands not the choice of amp.
Either you pluck with good attack or not.
Sometimes a loose attack is called for of course.

A bass playing friend of mine invested in a Radial JDI passive DI box. These things sound great, and you'll find them in many recording studios for that reason. I find that a lot of the time poor DI'd sounds are the result of terrible DI's!

Ditto
I have an Avalon U5 and have used it on a gig.
Sounded just killer.

To quote Micheal Anthony, save money on your amp if you want to sound like a well executed fart. A reasonably decent bass will sound great through a great amp, but a great bass will sound terrible through a bad amp. Also make sure that the battery is good on active pickups, a low battery will affect the tone.