issues with an MSA

John Carpenter · Post by **John Carpenter** » 21 Aug 2008 5:05 am

This is probably an easy fix, but it is frustrating the hell outta me.

I'm having a problem tuning the C pedal on my 4th string. If I tune the string correctly, the pedal is off. If i then tune the pedal up, the string will have dropped. What am i doing wrong?

Also, I purchased some of the George L nylon tuners to replace some of mine that had been stripped. They are too big however. and long. too long to fit in the case in fact. What is the proper threading for my 70's MSA classic. Is there something available that is more like the originals that came with the guitar?

thanks for any and all help

Randy Gilliam · Post by **Randy Gilliam** » 21 Aug 2008 6:45 am

Check the String Gauge ,I Have Had The Same Trouble and It was the Wrong Gauge ,Hope this helps Thanks Randy.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 21 Aug 2008 6:53 am

You probably don't have enough pedal travel and you are overtightening the nylon nut.

If you have a string smaller than a 014 you may have problems. Most people use a 014 on string 4. A smaller string will require more travel.

It's been almost 30 yrs since I had an MSA, but I believe there is a setscrew that adjusts pedal travel on the stop. Just back off the tuning nut and then adjust the stop to allow the pedal to travel a bit further, then tighten the nylon nut. Be sure the setscrew that holds the pull rod in the bellcrank is tight and that the bellcrank is firmly attached to the cross shaft.

Ron Wright · Post by **Ron Wright** » 21 Aug 2008 7:23 am

I was having a simular problem on mine after it was changed from DAY to Emmons setups (not by me). I learned this from trial and error and alot from the folks here on the forum. First I'd try to get all pedals to bottom out at the same point (using the set screws in the rail that are the pedal stops)then i crawled under it while it was set up and saw the string changer was not all the way released while the pedal was up.Back off the nylon nut then loosen the rod at the bell crank and slide the rod (giving the rod just alittle slack) toward the changer,be sure to retighten everything. I use Ball Driver type Allen Wrenches which makes it easier to get to those set screws.It took me several times to get everything adjusted but it's great now.this may not be the correct or easiest way but it worked for me.
I had read in the MSA manual that the rods should have alittle play in them

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 21 Aug 2008 4:21 pm

John, one thing to remember is the open (un-pedaled) string should never change when you adjust the nylon tuner. If it does, the nut is "overtuned", and you'll have to back off the nut (until the string no longer changes) and then get some additional travel elsewhere. Either from the pedal stop on the front of the guitar (as Larry said), or by switching to a puller hole that's further from the cross shaft. (I make it a habit to constantly monitor the open string when I'm tuning pedals to prevent that "tuning tail-chasing".)

If the new tuners stick out too far, you need to either move the pull rod in a little farther, or just take a hacksaw and cut some off of the tuner. Tuners or rods that stick out past the end of the guitar will eventually...

A.) Tear a pair of pants
B.) Screw up the inside of your case, or
C.) Cause the rod end to get bent

...and you don't want none of those things happening!

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 21 Aug 2008 5:07 pm

The Geo L's tuners come in several sizes- the older MSA's take .125". That being said- the stock MSA tuning nuts are about .4" long or so long and the Geo L's are about 1.5" or longer. Have someone cut them to the proper length on a lathe- for you- a 5 min job if that but it's important to get them cut squarely. Remember to take them an old one as a sample.

David Wright · Post by **David Wright** » 21 Aug 2008 6:18 pm

Save your self all the Frustration, sent it to So Ca , let jim get it Wright!!!!

Danny Goddard · Post by **Danny Goddard** » 26 Aug 2008 1:24 pm

So let me get this straight.... the string is in tune with no pedals, then you depress the pedal, tune the nylon to pitch, and when you release the pedal the string is out of tune (sharp)?

if so...I am assuming that this is a new steel to you or you worked on it yourself? (ie, this problem didn't just develope on it's own)

I had that problem on a few strings/pedals when I redid the coped on my steel recently. I resolved the issue by adjusting the barrel (my was allen keyed) that hangs in the swing-arm (bellcrank) and grips the rod. The result was a rod, that when not engaged, had a bit of space left at the nylon, that is, the rod traveled a mm or 2 before it struck the changer arm. The interplay between that connection adjustment and the nylon nut is critical to avoid an over-tightening condition when tuning...It takes a good balance between the a few of the adjustments to get it really humming.

The MSA "owners manual" is actually a pretty good resource if you are wanting to try and correct it yourself. I think it's available on the carter site (maybe someone or a forum search could help). I think that a professional mechanic or tech is always a great choice, but in some cases, especially with the limited availability of steel techs, a little bit of knowledge of your steel can go a long way!

And about the long nylons.....hacksaw for the cut and some sandpaper to make it look pretty!

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 27 Aug 2008 5:14 am

If you decide to cut them by hand, use a miter box. That'll cut them pretty square.