The Steel Guitar Forum

Hello steel playing friends, I haven't posted in an age. I have been playing with some incredible musicians lately, and to a man, they all say that they play behind the beat, some of the bassists say they play so far back that it can feel late, but but ends up just sounding cool and laid back. I have been trying to incorporate this into my steel playing, and tried it on a session last night and this morning, and I will be danged if it didn't sound cool as could be. Very relaxed and professional...

Any of you all think about where in the pocket you are playing on the steel? This is a concept that has been easier for me to put into practice in my guitar playing, but a bit tougher on the steel, I don't know why.

RIP Don Helms, I was so sad to hear of his passing, we shan't see the likes of him again.

Gerald

Sometimes on. Sometimes after. Sometimes before! It just depends.

Gerald,I live at the tail end of the beat,It's always been that way for me,I grew up playing a lot of Memphis style Soul music on guitar and organ,and then on steel,I'm kind of a laid back player though and I think that my playing reflects my personality.I don't do well at really fast bluegrass tunes or Bebop,although I've got ways to get around just not my favorite thing.I've heard Robby Turner play some real laid back stuff,and of course Jimmy Day.I think that it also depends on the style of the music.

This is really a good topic. I never thought of it this way. I try to get into a relaxed frame of mind when I play some songs and I think I'm doing what you're saying.

One of the hardest things for me is when I'm playing a song like Once in a While or All of Me, is not to play everything I know. I just realized this is a little off the subject. Sorry. Larry

Ahoy Gerald,

I love the behind the beat feel. I don't think it's a skill I have, though, just a natural tendency. It's really hard for me to play ahead of the beat. It just doesn't feel right to me. It always feels kind of frantic and uncomfortable to my ears when everything's a little ahead - like a race to the end of the song. I have a harder time doing it on up tempo tunes, though - it's got be in the mid-tempo (or slower) range for me to really do it well.

Gabriel

Great topic. I find that on the occasion that I get to play with or even talk in depth to really great musicians, it's their feel for rhythm that really sets them apart. It seems like the bluegrass musicians I've played with tend to play either on or a bit ahead of the beat. It gives it that propulsive drive. Jazz and blues guys, on the other hand are all behind the beat. If you mix those guys in a band, which I've done, you can get a really edgy, uncomfortable feel to the band until someone gives in.

I absolutely think about where I am in the pocket all the time. It drives me nuts when working with people who don't have the same conception about where the beat belongs. That is my #1 beef in bands - the pulse gets helter skelter and, very critically, destroys the space in the music. Sounds like a heart in fibrillation, to me.

But I don't think behind the beat is universal. Swings, shuffles, and a lot of blues and rock tend to lay behind the beat, but there can be influences that would take, let's say, a blues more on-the-beat. Bluegrass and rockabilly is sometimes - not always - right on the beat or even ahead. I agree with Rick - that can add a propulsive drive, and it's OK if everybody is on the same page.

Occasionally, playing with more bebop-oriented players, the feel can get pretty frenetic as drummers sometimes anticipate the beat. To me, that's just the time when the rest of the band needs to lay in the pocket - if they chase him too closely, it sometimes just runs away, to my tastes.

I like to genre hop, and sometimes musicians have clashed on this. It would be useful to be able to have a common language to talk about it, but not everyone gets it. Ultimately, I think it comes down to whether or not everybody can feel it. Occasionally, I've just had to split up or bail because one or more of the guys just couldn't, and there was no way to communicate with them about feel issues.

Gerald, I think the surest sign of nervousness is playing ahead of the beat. I think you sound much more relaxed and in control if you do play behind the beat, some slow easy going songs probably slightly more "BTB" than faster ones. If I can remind myself to do this I thin I feel and sound better. Very good topic by the way. This is something I try to help my students with also.
Jerry

Dave said,

I like to genre hop, and sometimes musicians have clashed on this.

And on the flip side, when you find some folks who all feel the beat the same way, magic can happen.

Keep in mind...that if everyone is playing layed back, on the bottom of the beat...then your dragging!!!

Cal is right. The only time you can really get away with this (and I do it) is when you have a drummer and bass player who are dead on. There is nothing worse than a dragging rhythm section.

The book is better than just another how to improvise. Its written by a Trombone player named Hal Crook. Teaches at Berkley. Of course all of the examples are on piano.They all play piano don't they. Its called How ro improvise. An Approch to practicing improvisation. It really is a great book. Several chapters dedicated to practicing different feels. With a CD to listen to it.
Something I notice is when I'm playing with BIAB it always feels like I have plenty of time to play.Even on a fast song. A lot of times with a band, especially a jam, you always seem to be shoving notes in as fast as you can. Even at the same speed. making space in my playing helps me with where I am placing the note on the beat. Again, much harder to do when the musicians are all excited and anticaping what is going to happen next.

I've had the same problem with BIAB. It kind of makes sense. When you're playing with other people you have to converge on where you all think the beat is. There's a constant push/pull trying to find consensus. With BIAB, you don't get a chance to practice that. Instead, you let someone else, i.e. the computer, be responsible for the beat. I find that I have to force myself to own the beat when I'm soloing by consciously focusing on the rhythmic content of what I'm doing instead of always worrying about which flashy lick I'm going to try and impress everyone with.

Our band did a couple of gigs with Joe Craven on violin and it was eye opening. Because he held the beat with absolute authority, the rest of us played much, much better. I learned a lot from him about rhythm.

Gerald-When I played with some good swing, jazz bands with a good drummer. He would jump the beat some and I would be always play behind the beat,on those kind of tunes. I agree , it was cool...al.:)

Former Doobie Brother, Chet McCracken played drums for Joe Walsh for 2 years.

He said Joe Walsh told him at the first rehearsal.

"I want the drums behind the beat, I want the bass on the beat, I'll play ahead of the beat"

This is an important subject for me because I'm weak in this area. I grew up playing bass for rock and country and have a feel for where I think the bass should be. I think it works out OK for me on those styles, but when forced to play swing in the Army band system with people who really lived for that style I was unable to adapt to playing a bit ahead of the drummer like they wanted. I could understand it in theory, but I couldn't feel it. I didn't understand why it was important, and found their insistence on it annoying.

Now that I have some decent recording equipment it's becoming much more clear to me. I find myself bumping my bass tracks ahead by 50ms or so to get them to sound "right", and I understand why people wanted me to do that. Unfortunately I still can't "feel" it very well while playing, though .

you guys actively think about this stuff while your playing? and you are also thinkning things like "mxylodian scale here, now I'll go to a penta minor scale, etc"?

man Im thinking about my laundry or what Im gonna have for dinner when Im playin. I jusy play.
Your way is probably better, but I guess we are all just gonna do what we are gonna do.

I don't have to think about it at all when I play the styles I grew up on. Turns out that doesn't cut it for other styles.

Behind is where I love to be.

you guys actively think about this stuff while your playing? and you are also thinkning things like "mxylodian scale here, now I'll go to a penta minor scale, etc"?

On feel - it depends on the people I'm working with, style I'm playing, and how familiar I am with that ensemble and style. I don't need to think about it unless something's not right.

On notes - I don't think about modes, per se, while playing. But I sometimes do need to think about what notes I should play - if they're not completely intuitive and obvious.

Of course, one can avoid thinking completely. Two ways:

1. Never play anything that's not completely obvious to you and never play with people who aren't on exactly the same page as you.

2. If you violate rule number 1, just don't worry about it and play the wrong feel and wrong note(s).

When I play steel, which I've only played a few months, I think more about survival and not screwing anyone else up. When I play guitar, which I've done since I was a little kid, I think about trying to come up with something new and not play the same old stuff I usually play. As far as modes, scales, etc., I think it's like Charlie Parker said, you have to work really hard to learn all that stuff and then learn to forget it all and just play.

I am pretty much with your Rick. Mostly trying to just not screw it all up when Im playing steel, whereas guitar , which was my main instrument since childhood, I am more adventurous and will go wherever the spirit moves me. My goal is to get to the same level of comfort and freedom on the psg as i enjoy of the guitar. But i just dont actively think about scales, modes, and especially "feel"...while I am playing psg..and I never did on guitar either.
Im not saying thats good or something to be proud of...its not. Its just the way I play, and I am amazed and impressed that people can be actively thinking about this stuff while they are playing and emoting. Its apparently not a skill I possess.

Ben,

I know exactly what you mean. I think it'll take a long time to get my steel playing anywhere near my guitar playing. I do think that understanding how the guitar works is making my steel playing come along faster. There's a lot of stuff that really is knowledge about how music works and applies to any instrument. I'm a big believer in understanding the harmonized scale and how that applies to your instrument. I beat that into my guitar student's heads. When I started playing the steel that the first thing I started trying to figure out. It's helped me not feel quite so lost. Still, every once in a while I'll mash a pedal and it's like everyone in the whole joint stops and looks at me with a frown on their face from how bad wrong it is. Humbling.

Ben - like you, I'd much rather just emote and not have to think consciously about it. But sometimes I find myself - from a survival point of view - needing to think as I go to avoid playing that "wrong" note or figure out where in the pocket I need to be.

For example, when playing with completely new people - in a session, jam session, or something like that - I need to listen for what's going on and decide how I'm going to fit in. If I'm working as a sideman in this situation and I just try to fit my preconceived notion of how it "should" work, it may clash badly. That's true for any instrument, for me.

Dave said,

Quote:
I like to genre hop, and sometimes musicians have clashed on this.


And on the flip side, when you find some folks who all feel the beat the same way, magic can happen.

Yeah, for sure. But sometimes that agreement doesn't happen without some thought, preparation, and practice.

How can you feel comfortable and confident if you don't know what you are playing. How could you possibly
think of playing on the beat behind, etc if you don't even know what you are going to play. Believe me, playing with your head and then with your hands takes practice but you will reap rewards you have never dreamed of.
Who you are playing with certainly makes a difference. Like said above. Play with some players that know what they are doing and your playing will be different than what it will be with hackers.