Newbie question... 'starter' advice!

[Jeff Rutland]

Hi all,

I'm a long time guitarist, who's been curious about pedal steel for just as long! I've decided that I'm going to pick one up and start learning how to play.

I've seen lots of advice for beginners as far as what models to get. 'Starter' models, or a used 'Pro' model. I'm not made of money (is anyone?) so I'm not all jazzed about spending a ton on something I've never played before. However, I don't want to get an instrument that I'll regret buying.

Which leads me to this - I've seen good and bad feedback about the Carter Starter model. Can someone articulate exactly why they would avoid using that guitar as a learning tool? This would be a guitar that I would keep in my basement, not travel around with. It would largely sit unmoved in my music room. What are the differences in playability from a learning perspective between that and a 'Pro' model?

The 'Pro' model I've been considering is the Jackson 'BlackJack' - sounds like a great guitar, but obviously much more expensive than the Carter. Would a beginner like me, using it for only learning purposes for the next few years, really notice that much of a difference? If I can ask, please be specific in your responses. I appreciate the feedback, I'd just like to make the best informed decision that I can when purchasing. That, and if I decide on the Jackson, there's a 12 week wait!!

Thanks for any guidance you guys can provide, I truly appreciate it.

[Rick Barnhart]

Give Doug Earnest a call at Stage One Steel Guitars. They're licensed by ZumSteel and have a great reputation. Don't settle for anything less than 10 strings, 3 pedals, & 4 knees levers. New price is well under $1000. I won't knock anyone's guitar, I love my Carter D-10, but the Stage One was designed by Bruce Zumsteg!! This guitar will be ready when you change your mind about not leaving the basement with it.

http://www.stageonesteelguitars.com/

[Ronnie Boettcher]

I have had no contact with starter guitars, for 30 some years, but here is my question to you. You say your are a guitarist. Would you go out and buy, or recommend a $100 guitar, for yourself, or a friend of yours to learn on? I think I said it all. Go get yourself a steel with minimum 3 foot pedals, and 4 knee levers, and 10 strings. You won't regret it.

[Jeff Rutland]

I have had no contact with starter guitars, for 30 some years, but here is my question to you. You say your are a guitarist. Would you go out and buy, or recommend a $100 guitar, for yourself, or a friend of yours to learn on? I think I said it all. Go get yourself a steel with minimum 3 foot pedals, and 4 knee levers, and 10 strings. You won't regret it.

Ha! I definitely hear what you are saying.

My main guitar is a $300 Mexican Telecaster with Kinman pickups. I'm a regular gigging musician with this guitar, and it gives me everything I need. Could I afford a nicer guitar? You bet - but for my purposes, this guitar plays magnificently.

That's the point in my question - where are the downfalls with the Carter? Other than people saying 'don't buy it' I don't hear any specific reasons why not to buy it. I saw a rather impressive video by Bobby Seymour on youtube playing it, as well as a couple of other guys. I know some players will sound good through anything, I understand that... but it appears to me the guitar is capable of some nice sounds, and appears to function without falling apart. I'm sure 'Pro' guitars are smoother and probably have a better overall appearance / sound. But for getting the hang of it and exploring, again... why specifically wouldn't this guitar suffice?

[Darren James]

I'm probably not qualified to answer this question, but one thing about the Carter Starter is the coped. You won't be able to change it. Whereas if you got a pro model you could change it to whatever you wanted. I would suggest trying to find a used pro model. You could probably find one for what a new BlackJack costs.

[Brian Kurlychek]

Let me start off by saying I am a guitar player too, and new to Steel. (I have yet to pick mine up).

You have asked a question that I don't think can be answered, or there are many answers depending on your own personal feelings.

I can't tell you why or why not to buy a Carter Starter. I can only tell you why I decided to buy a Fessenden.

Everyone will have his or her own opinion on what they like guitar-wise and tone-wise.

The only thing I can say to you is get the guitar you want. (you know you have one in mind already)

I know for me, I only wanted to buy a guitar once. I wanted something I will be happy with for years to come. And I also wanted something that I could get my money back out of quickly if I needed.

These are the 3 things I looked for in a guitar. Quality, tone, and resale. I decided on Fessenden.

Jerry Fessenden said once in an article, "If your guitar breaks, I fix it. Basically, for life".

You can't just bring your steel to any street corner to get it worked on like you can with a regular guitar. So I think the choice of what steel guitar to buy is a very very important decision.

[b0b]

I have had no contact with starter guitars, for 30 some years, but here is my question to you. You say your are a guitarist. Would you go out and buy, or recommend a $100 guitar, for yourself, or a friend of yours to learn on? I think I said it all. Go get yourself a steel with minimum 3 foot pedals, and 4 knee levers, and 10 strings. You won't regret it.

The Carter-Starter has 3 foot pedals, and 4 knee levers, and 10 strings. Student models have come a long way since the days of the Maverick and Red Baron.

[Steve Feldman]

I have had no contact with starter guitars, for 30 some years, but here is my question to you. You say your are a guitarist. Would you go out and buy, or recommend a $100 guitar, for yourself, or a friend of yours to learn on? I think I said it all. Go get yourself a steel with minimum 3 foot pedals, and 4 knee levers, and 10 strings. You won't regret it.

Ha! I definitely hear what you are saying.

My main guitar is a $300 Mexican Telecaster with Kinman pickups. I'm a regular gigging musician with this guitar, and it gives me everything I need. Could I afford a nicer guitar? You bet - but for my purposes, this guitar plays magnificently.

That's the point in my question - where are the downfalls with the Carter? Other than people saying 'don't buy it' I don't hear any specific reasons why not to buy it. I saw a rather impressive video by Bobby Seymour on youtube playing it, as well as a couple of other guys. I know some players will sound good through anything, I understand that... but it appears to me the guitar is capable of some nice sounds, and appears to function without falling apart. I'm sure 'Pro' guitars are smoother and probably have a better overall appearance / sound. But for getting the hang of it and exploring, again... why specifically wouldn't this guitar suffice?

You basically just answered your own question. The is no reason in the world why the Carter won't do what you're looking for. In the long run, if this takes, maybe you get a different steel that has some other features or that has more flexibility to change the setup, etc.

But I find it interesting that you only have a $300 Mex Tele. Most folks I know in your role would definately have migrated over to a more expensive guitar because in many/most cases, there is a difference. That you haven't says a lot about what you're looking for in a steel.

So, get whatever will help you '[get] the hang of it and '[explore]'. I'm sure you'll have a blast whichever way you go.

[Jeff Rutland]

You basically just answered your own question. The is no reason in the world why the Carter won't do what you're looking for. In the long run, if this takes, maybe you get a different steel that has some other features or that has more flexibility to change the setup, etc.

But I find it interesting that you only have a $300 Mex Tele. Most folks I know in your role would definately have migrated over to a more expensive guitar because in many/most cases, there is a difference. That you haven't says a lot about what you're looking for in a steel.

So, get whatever will help you '[get] the hang of it and '[explore]'. I'm sure you'll have a blast whichever way you go.

Yeah, I've always avoided expensive gear really... I just don't want to pour a lot of money into gear that might get stolen / damaged in the bars and clubs we play.

I also believe that the majority of the sound a player gets out of an instrument is from the player themselves, and their technique. The tele that I have just 'works' for me - not a lot of the Mexi guitars in general do, for me personally. I went to GC to try an amp, and just picked it up for something to play through it - I soon forgot about the amp, and walked out with the guitar.

I've heard many comments about not getting a Carter, and I honestly don't know enough about the PSG to know what could be wrong with the guitar - for the application I am pursuing, specifically, a learning instrument. After seeing the Bobbe Seymour video, I got even more curious about it. Are the levers / pedals harder to work with? Does it sound 'inferior' to the point where a beginner would notice and be bothered by it? I honestly don't know.

Now, the Jackson BlackJack looks like quite an instrument to me... but it's also twice the price, for a beginner with 2 small kids and a wife wondering how much time I'll be spending in the basement with this toy.

[Brian Kurlychek]

Well the price is right on the starter. You can get a used one for what $550?

The fact that you can't change the copedent shouldn't matter since you are just starting. You won't know the difference most likely.

I ordered my fessy with the standard copedent. The only difference is I will be able to change mine if I want to and if you have the starter model you can't. Now, I may never change from standard copedent, but I like to know I have the option if I want to change it.

[Tucker Jackson]

Jeff, the Carter-Starter is great as a learning instrument. That's exactly what it was designed for: getting new players to take the plunge for not much money.

The guitar plays smoothly, sounds good, and stays in tune. It's good enough to gig with -- although if you really get into pedal steel, you'll probably want to upgrade someday.

Is it as sturdy as a pro model? No. But it's one-fourth the price of a new S-10 pro-level guitar.

Buying a used pro model of recent vintage is always a great choice. But there are very few used pro guitars for the price of a new Carter-Starter (it's more like double the cost to get into that ballpark).

Most of the other manufacturer's "economy" guitars cost a little (or even a lot) more than the Carter-Starter. I haven't tried them out, but others here report that for the additional cost -- you get a little (or even a lot) more guitar. If you can come up with two or three hundred bucks more, you should look at some other brands of student or economy guitars. Stage One, for example. GFI makes a student guitar (comes with 2 knee levers, but you can add more).

As always, your budget will dictate.

Enjoy!

[Brick Spieth]

I have a Starter on loan, and it does everything it needs to do. I've been playing it a lot while I wait for my Stage One. I can tell already I'll be moving up in quality as funds allow, but these student guitars work and are a lot of fun.

My take on learning is this. Better to buy a $1000 guitar and take $1000 worth of lessons than buy a $2000 guitar. Along the way you should learn enough to choose which $2000 guitar you will want to buy eventually.

If I had unlimited funds I'd have a vintage Sho Bud or two just cause they look so purdy. Of course I couldn't make it sound good, but I'd have a lot of fun trying.

Buy the way, I put a set of Duncan Antiquities in a MIM toploader tele and it sounded great. I'm sure the Kinmans do too.

[Jim Peters]

Steels are not comparable to guitars. You can get a great guitar for $500 or even less( I'm partial to Godins and my Nashville Tele), but that quality in a steel would be more like $1500(used Carter SD10 or GFI, or others).
I own a nice SD10 Carter, and a Carter Starter, which I leave at rehearsal space. The idea was to practice at home on the pro Carter, but I never do, it only comes out at gigs now, so I'm gonna sell the starter. To answer your question directly about starter problems: It has 3 main problems; the left knee right lever has to move a lot lower the Es, the left knee left has a mushy stop, and the tuners, though they do hold, are pretty cheap. The pedals work great, the sound is very decent, the guitar is ultralight. The "gigbag" is useless. None of the problems are dealbreakers. Hope this helps, JP

[Rick Hulett]

I'll add my 2 cents here given that I'm a guitar player that took up steel a few months ago on a Carter Starter . I bought mine on a whim from a guy on the Gearslutz recording forum. I didn't discover the Forum until after that. The Carter Starter is a great thing to decide whether this is your cup of tea or not. If you like it, it's also a great way to keep learing while you figure out exactly what it is that you want. Do you want an SD10? A D10? U12? Extended E9? Lots of question that will take some research and real thought to figure out. I used mine for a month or so and then bought a Derby D10. While the Carter Starter has all the basic functions, it's like night and day when you get a better guitar. Still, it's worth it. If you can make the Carter Starter sound like a steel then when you get a better one it will sound way, way better primarily because it's so much easier to play. I still have my Carter Starter and I'm debating whether to sell it or hold on to it, but they appear to be pretty easy to sell, so there's not much risk.

[Tobie Schalkwyk]

Don't settle for anything less than 10 strings, 3 pedals, & 4 knees levers

Ditto. I started off with one and never desired more. I'm dreaming of owning an Emmons PP one day, though...

[Mike Perlowin]

The good things about the Carter Starter:

They have 4 knee levers, unlike other student guitars. This is a MAJOR plus. Steels with only one knee lever are like guitars with only 3 frets.

They work well and sound pretty good.

They are not very expensive, and has been pointed out, easy to sell. If you decide steel is not your thing, or you want something better, you can get most of your investment back.

The bad things about it:

The tuning is fixed. You can't change anything. As you learn more, you will most likely want to experiment with different changes, or different placement of the changes you have, The Carter Starter does not allow you to do this.

They are fragile. Once you start playing out, you're going to need something that's sturdy enough to withstand the rigors of gigging.

The Carter Starter is exactly what it claims to be: a good entry level instrument, designed for home or bedroom use. It's a good choice if you're learning how to play. Once you know how to play, you will want to upgrade to something better, but as has been already mentioned, you have several different options, and after you've spent a year or 2 on the Starter, you'll know enough to make an informed decision as to what you want.

[David Thornburgh]

Jeff:

My two cents to add to the pile. I fit your description as of a couple years ago--long time 6 string player interested in learning psg. I bought a Carter Starter used for about $525, played it for about a year and a half, sold it for $550, and now have a Blackjack on order (since March!!).

My comments on the Carter Starter: it has a great sound; generally stays in tune; feels kinda flimsy (esp. the poorly designed LKL screw/stop; no way to adjust the height without the leg extension kit.

From what I've heard and read the Blackjack is a wonderful guitar and I'm looking forward to getting my hands on it. Good luck.

David

[Brian Kurlychek]

Well, I guess by your want ad you have decided on getting something a little more than the carter?

Just keep an eye on the forum. I saw 2 great deals go this week, and there are always deals coming on the forum. You just have to check often.

Tracking the forum sales has its benefits. First, you get to see and learn about alot of guitars. Second, you get to see which ones sit and which ones go fast. Third, when you finally do purchase your steel, you will have made an educated purchase as to the price and condition.

[Ben Jones]

Is there a steel guitar association or club or just some helpful players in Jeff's area that can help him find and choose a guitar should he opt not to purchase a Starter or other new student model?

Jeff start lookin for a teacher now. They take a while to find (if ever)..and maybe this person could help you pick a guitar also.

[Gary Shepherd]

Buy the Carter Starter for $500. Play it until you decide to give up or continue with a pro model. Then sell the Carter Starter for $501. Simple.

When my Sierra got destroyed in a house fire four years ago, I got a Carter Starter to play on until I had money for a nicer guitar.

There's nothing wrong with the Starter. I would play it on a gig if my D-10 was "in the shop".

[Greg Wisecup]

Here's how it sounds. This will keep you busy for about, oh..100 years.click here

[Lowell Whitney]

Jeff, check out the S10 Dekley in the "for sale instruments". These old Dekleys are an overlooked Gem. Add the extra knee levers and you've got a pro model.
LW

[Brian McGaughey]

Jeff,

I began learning E9 pedal steel nearly 2 years ago. My pride wouldn't let me buy a "starter" or student instrument, and I knew I'd be sticking with it. I decided on a mid '70s MSA semi-classic S10. It cost me $550.00 and I haven't had to do a thing to it except a lift kit 'cause I'm tall. Oh yeah, I changed out the P/U to a TrueTone single coil. These old things are like tanks: indestructable.

Yeah it only has 2 knees (Es raise, lower) along with the 3 pedals (emmons) but trust me, that's plenty to keep a guy busy to start. I'm going to add another knee soon.

On my old MSA, I'm still pulling more tone out of it every time I set down. My point is, I've not reached the full potenial of this good ol' guitar. When I do I'll by a better one, but it just keeps sounding better!

Good luck, enjoy the journey...it's a blast!

Brian

[James Harrison]

Just read Gary Sheperd's post again. Don't thimk for a minuite that Bud Carter will lower his reputation of building Steel Guitars by building a starter guitar that you can't play. Listen to Bobbe Seymour. I will bet a Carter Starter will keep you busy for years before you have a need for something it will not do. In our local jams, one player has a Martin D41 and has to watch others to know where to change chords and the best ryhthm player plays a $150.00 New Yorker Pro. The name on the instrument will not make you play better, only practice and talent will do that. So I say buy the Carter Starter and practice 2 hours each day and if you don't learn it, you can get your money back by selling the guitar.
James

[Joey Ace]

My main guitar is a $300 Mexican Telecaster

I believe the folks that say, "Don't buy a Carter Starter" are equivalent to the standard guitarists that say ,"Don't buy a Mex Tele, the Custom Shop Teles are better". Then the owners of $5K PRS guitars join the conversation and say the Mex Teles are inferior.

It's true, but there are other factors for a beginner to consider.

The Carter Starter is a good first instrument.