The Steel Guitar Forum

Hello everyone

It's been a long time since I last posted. I have been doing a lot of studying about music theory since I started learning the C6th neck a couple of years ago.

I know what the notes are in the major and minor pentatonic scale. I also know that I use the major pentatonic scales when soloing in country music and minor pentatonic scales when soloing in blues.

Since there is not much information these scales and their POCKETS for the steel guitar on the E9th and C6th necks, I would like to find out which pockets are the most commonly used for these scales. For instance, I discovered that the OBAIL pocket from Jeff Newman's C6th course uses the Major pentatonic scale notes and that is why it fits over a I, IV and V chord change in a key. Since the major pentatonic scale leaves out the 4th and 7th tone, then i could just play any major scale pocket which I already know and leave out those 2 notes for both the E9th and C6th necks. I also have discovered other pockets but would be interested in learning more information and pockets from more experienced players who play pentatonic scales, especially the minor pentatonic pockets.

Don, to get a minor scale, you just slide up 3 frets from your major scale position. Your root note will now appear on a different string, but you can play the same "pattern."

This not a steel guitar thing, it's a music theory thing. It works on any instrument. This is because every major scale also contains a minor scale -- the so-called "relative minor." To play that minor scale, you just begin on the 6th tone of that fret's major scale.

So you might think about it this way... if you're looking for a certain minor scale, you have to know which major scale "contains" it. The shortcut is "3 frets up."

E9th Example:
* C-Major scale can be found in the pedals-down position at the 3rd fret. Root note is on the 6th string. Use A and B pedals and 2nd-string-lower knee to get other notes of the major scale.

* C-minor scale can be found 3 frets up, at the 6th fret. For the minor scale, root is now on the 7th string (note: if you started the scale on the 6th string in this fret, it would be a D# MAJOR scale. The D# Major scale contains the C minor scale you're looking for).

For the minor scale, start on the 7th string. And then play the same strings and use the same pedals/knee moves as when you were in the 3rd fret -- only now it's a C-minor scale instead of a C-Major.

This example is for the pedals-down positon. Any position where you can play a major scale works the same way: Slide up 3, find the new string that has your root note, then play the same pattern as you did for the major scale.

To get the pentatonic scales, just leave out the appropriate tones from the full 8-note scale.

Thanks Tucker

I know about the relative minors to majors. IE VIm is relative to I chord, IIm is relative to IV chord, IIIm is relative to V chord, etc

Thanks for the other info.

If the band is playing in C and I want to play the blues or pentatonic minor scale, where do I play?

On E9, the A pedal minor position has an easy pentatonic minor scale. The root is on the 10th string. 8th string is the minor 3rd. 7th string is 4. 5th string with the pedal up is the minor 7th. Then hit the A pedal for the top root on that same string. Going on up from the 5th string with the A pedal, you have the same scale on strings 4, 1 and 3, ending on the 5th. My RKV raises strings 1 and 7 a half step to get the b5, which is also useful with that scale in blues and jazz.

For the rest of this box, go up two frets and let off the A pedal for the IV chord, and two frets up from that is the V. Or, from the A pedal minor root chord position, drop down one fret and add the B pedal (so you have both A and B pedals down) for the V. In that position my RKV makes that V7. Also, at the A pedal minor root chord position, let of the A pedal and that gives the relative major, which in a minor key functions as the IIIb chord, a powerful chord in blues and jazz. And from the A pedal minor root chord position, drop down two frets and add the F lever for the VIIb chord, also a powerful chord in blues and jazz. And three frets below that is the V. A gutsy progression leading into the Im is to start on that V position with a power chord on strings 5, 6 and 10; move up three frets on the same strings for the VIIb power chord, and then let off the F lever, keep the A pedal down and move up one fret to the Im. Actually, as long as you stick with the power chord, the F lever is not necessary, because you are skipping that string.

If you put all the chords I just mentioned together, you have the harmonized pentatonic minor scale: Im, IIIb, IV, V7, VIIb, Im, which sound really cool played as power chords. If the band is playing in Am, you get the Im at the 8th fret with the A pedal down.

deleted with apologies. no sense of humor.

All about pentatonic scales. Great for playing the blues. Some of the scales I run everyday for warm-up exercises.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentatonic_scale

Thanks David. I will play around with those positions.

Interestingly (at least t me!) what Don is asking for is the same thing I've posted about several times with very little response except for folks commenting that it's a steel, not a guitar, and little useful information. That's when I was trying to find exactly the same things in E9. I couldn't get anywhere, so I dumped E9, went to 8 and 10 string B6 and found all of the "blues boxes" and "pentatonic boxes" laid out very clearly.

Since there is not much information these scales and their POCKETS for the steel guitar on the E9th and C6th necks

Understand I'm NOT trying to shift this to a negative thread...but he's absolutely right, and THAT stuff is what 6-stringers learn almost right away through most rock/country teaching materials. 6-stringers transitioning to pedal steel could do it VERY quickly (at least some of the basics, and be able to "see" the fretboard logic" if those materials were available.

Hopefully some qualified player/teacher will do a book/CD combination along that line, that's more "generic" stylistically and simply practical stuff for ANY style (except maybe classical or advanced jazz styles. It sure would pull in a lot more potential players than the stuff that's out there now.

I have watched Carl Johnson AKA bluemmons, on You Tube doing some great blues licks on both the C6th and E9th neck. On the E9th neck, it looks like some of his licks are done 2 frets below the pedals down position.

I think also that B0B who runs this forum knows something about blues positions.

Two frets down is also a good theory. When playing blues on a 6 string, key of "A" 5th fret, I go 2 frets down, 3rd fret, and play notes from the "G" major scale. It also works on STEEL. So... 2 frets down, or 3 frets up. Lot a good bluesy licks in those pockets. I'm not "up to speed" on theory, but I know what I hear!
Rick

This topic is something I have been keenly interested in since taking up the instrument.
I am with Jim in not understanding why this info isnt more readily available. I dont understand why this isnt covered in beginners courses?

Tuckers "three frets up from pedals down" was a revelation for me when he first was kind enough to show me. Keep in mind this position could also be described as "two frets down from root no pedals".

apart from Tuckers help, Ive had to stumble around tryin to find this info on my own. From attempting to disect the recordings of a local player who's playing I really admire, I can hear alot of stuff goin on with the C pedal but Im still largely clueless as to just what it is thats goin on.

Jim-the "blues boxes" we guitarists love do exist on E9th (sort of). but apparently you and I and now Don, are the ONLY ones who are interested in em or who dont feel its some kind of molestation of the "troo" blues to map em out . I posted my early noob versions of em once and you seemed to like how i mapped em out, but alas your onto bigger and better things with your own tuning. more power to you. I wanna check that out myself sometime. Don if i knew how to draw a diagram and post it here I'd post my feeble attempt at "blues boxes" or pockets for you.

good luck tryin to get info on this. Tucker for president!

edit: in my haste to gripe about the lack of material on this subject i missed davids post. That looks interesting. My theory is so poor its gonna take my feeble brain a few mintes to comprehend it tho but I will sit down with it and give it a shot. Thanks for that!!

On E9 when you lower strings 2 and 9 to C# its a pentatonic scale on all 10 strings... thats a pretty easy one.

Then combine the 2,9 lower with the E-D# and move up 5 frets and same result, all strings a pentatonic.

There are several more depending on your copedent

We're talking about two different things here. If you look at my example of the A pedal minor position for the pentatonic scale, there is no box that can be mapped out, because all the notes are at the same fret. The use of the A pedal adds what some have called a "vertical" dimension to the box. But if you try to draw a visual "pocket" diagram, you just get a bunch of dots all lined up on one fret.

If you look at the other chords I mention, they range from 4 frets above the root fret, to 5 frets below it. So you are basically moving over most of an octave on the neck, and it's kind of a stretch to call that a box or pocket.

The other concept being discussed is to move the bar on single strings (as you would your fingers on 6-string) to pick out the scale (or a melody) with notes found two frets below or three frets above the tonic fret. That could of course be mapped out like a traditional 6-string pocket.

There is a smattering of that sort of thing, not just for blues, but for country and jazz, in some steel lessons. But it is usually considered so trivial and obvious that not much space is devoted to it. Also, because this approach gives only single notes, with little or no harmony, it is of little interest to most steelers. They can figure that out for themselves easily enough; but what they are looking for more is where the chords are with pedal and lever and grip combinations, at a single fret, or at frets any distance from the root fret. Swooping changes moving an octave or more away on the neck are of as much interest as chords available on the nearby frets of a "pocket." In fact, to stay near a single fret is considered an undesirable limitation in style. It is a beginner's dead-end mistake.

There is of course great value in getting as much as you can at a single fret, and that is why the extra scale strings (erroneously called the "chromatic" strings) were added to the open chord strings, and why pedals and levers were added. But as mentioned above, that stuff all lines up on the same fret and so doesn't make a useful pocket type diagram. It takes tab to demonstrate that stuff.

So there are two main things pedal steelers do - pick a lot of stuff at the same fret and swoop up and down the neck between chord positions with moving harmony. These are both very different from what is done on 6-string (except for slide guitar), and neither can be put in a useful pocket type diagram.

That being said, back when there was a steel magazine, people like Buddy Emmons published articles showing some pocket diagrams for advanced single string playing. It was of special interest for bebop single string speed picking.

So I guess that kind of single string picking that lends itself to pocket diagrams is either too trivial, or too advanced to show up much in typical instructional material.

But back to the two frets down and three frets up for a blues pocket, those are actually chord positions. Three frets up is the IIIb chord, and two frets down is the VIIb chord. So learning the harmonized pentatonic scale up and down the fret board gives not only single string pockets, but also harmony and chord changes.

If you get my new CD (see below for shameless shill), you will hear me do some single string blues picking in the two-frets-down and three-frets-up pocket. But you will also hear some pedal-steel harmonized sliding around between chord positions and pedal and lever combinations that cannot be done on regular guitar or even 6-string slide guitar. I started out playing 6-string slide guitar blues in North Mississippi. Right now, I am dedicated for awhile to finding out how far I can push blues picking on an E9/B6 universal pedal steel. I'm not trying to duplicate the more gospel oriented Sacred Steel E7 style playing, which is more derivative of lap steel. I'm trying to take off from the Chicago electric slide guitar style (which actually all came from Mississippi) and see how it can be expanded with the greater chordal and harmony possibilities of pedal steel. I hope some of you will check it out and let me know what you think.

I understand that the pedals and levers make trad "blue box diagrams" a bit awkward for psg. There are however single note no pedals "blues box" type positions that move within a 4-5 fret range that can be diagramed. These might be obvious, trivial, or of no interest to most steelers...but for the beginner coming from 6 string guitar (and I beleive there are alot of those in the psg world) it is neither trvial nor particularly obvious and it most certainly is of great interest. Sure i can and did find em on my own...but thats in part what beginners material is for no? to lay out the basics, the seemingly "obvious"? i understand the difficulties in diagraming it, I understand there are other approaches using pedals and levers, I understand these different approaches are used together and not to the exclusion of each other. i still dont understand why its all omitted from the beginners lit, obvious or not.
To a beginner NOTHING is obvious , beleieve me.

Don Benoit wrote:Thanks Tucker
If the band is playing in C and I want to play the blues or pentatonic minor scale, where do I play?

What I was suggesting in my earlier post was to play the minor scale in the 6th fret.

Pentatonic would be:
7th string (root note)
6th string (w/ B-pedal down)
5th string
5th string (w/ A-pedal)
4th string
1st string (high root note)

I've always done what Tucker is talking about. The best 'box' is two frets below the 'pedals up' root. So in A it's the 3rd fret. Theory wise this could be considered a 'Dorian' position (major 6 not minor).

Here's an example of the major 6th tone combined with notes from an A minor pentatonic, consider the following:

For a rockabilly lick in A go to the 3rd fret and pick strings 2 and 3 with the B pedal down a few times then pick string 1. If you listen to the pedabro solo on this tune, this lick is used in the first part of the second half of the solo.

Polyester Ester

Note that the song I linked to above is in C, so you would be playing at the 6th fret.

I think you are right, Ben. It's a big oversight in instructional material. I didn't mean to excuse it, just to explain why the oversight might exist. If nothing else, putting some pocket diagrams in the beginning of an instruction course would give the student a kick start on some simple, lap-style, single-string picking, and quickly lead the student to understand the limitations of that approach to playing and writing for pedal steel, and the need to move on to studying tab.

This need really arises more with learning blues-rock steel, and there is very little instruction of any kind directed to that. It's all traditional country or Hawaiian, with some advanced stuff for western swing and jazz. That's just part of the problem with the genre niches steel has been pigeon-holed into (partly by steelers themselves).

If you look at who writes steel instruction, it's country pros. They have the time, the incentive to pickup a little music-related money, and the name recognition to connect with potential buyers. They then write about what they make their living at. Even if they know some blues-rock steel, it doesn't occur to them to put some of that in for beginners. Until the recent interest in Robert Randolph and other Sacred Steelers, there wasn't much interest in the past in playing blues-rock on steel, and most of the instruction material out there is many years old.

And now for something completely different....

I have become pretty adept at playing blues/rock stuff from pockets, but one thing I have learned from the Sacred Steel players is to get out of the pocket. So for soloing I very well might play the entire solo on one string with no pedals.

Here's an example from my Unsanctified Gospel CD:

Dan playing out of the box (look ma, just one string)

Nice Dan! I've used a somewhat similar approach on non-pedal in certain situations and have been told it's "cheating" by a couple of other steel players. You know, poor musicianship. Such criticism never bothered me any. Glad to see other players "cheat" too!

It's not only not cheating, it's really, really hard.

There's a type of expressiveness that you can really only get from this type of technique (I look at it as playing horizontally rather than vertically).

Scott Swartz wrote:On E9 when you lower strings 2 and 9 to C# its a pentatonic scale on all 10 strings... thats a pretty easy one.

Then combine the 2,9 lower with the E-D# and move up 5 frets and same result, all strings a pentatonic.

There are several more depending on your copedent

Yes, that's the major pentatonic scale. To get the minor 7th pentatonic that people use in blues, move both of those positions up 3 frets. In the key of E that would be at the 3rd fret (D lever) and the 8th fret (D+E levers).

The 1st pedal works well in both of those positions. It doubles the note on the second string. Great for Duane Allman licks. I use both of those positions a lot when playing rock or blues lead lines.

In all this, nobody's linked to Buddy's stuff?

http://www.buddyemmons.com/Pockets.htm

http://www.buddyemmons.com/MinorPockets.htm

Life-changing stuff, that... so you want to play on one string? You don't have to love the music, to try the technique...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzH7aFSZ ... re=related

(he starts pepping up about about 2:15, in a major way)

Yes, that's the BE pocket stuff I was talking about above. I remembered it from an old magazine. I forgot he had it on his web site. It's jazz, not blues, but jazz is blues based. So now is everybody happy?

That's what I'm talking about, David!

Those Indian steel players have the best 'horizontal' technique out there.....

David Doggett wrote:Yes, that's the BE pocket stuff I was talking about above. I remembered it from an old magazine. I forgot he had it on his web site. It's jazz, not blues, but jazz is blues based. So now is everybody happy?

That C6th stuff would make me happy if I had a C6th guitar. Was there E9th stuff there and I missed it? sometimes im dumb like that.

Everytime one of these threads comes up i learn one or two more little things, so I guess i have to be happy with that.

I understand the instructional material for this instrument was written back when Fred Flinstone was playin. I understand that the focus has been and continues to be country music. However, if you guys are sincerely worried about the future of your instrument as you so often proclaim, and since most of your new players today come from 6 string guitar, and since young new players often have a desire to play music which some on this forum describe as "that aint music!"....the need for inclusion of the pentatonic minor scale (or whatever the heck its called) to at least be touched upon, even breifly, in beginners material needs to be addressed at some point...in my humblest of humble opinions.

This Instrument is difficult , compounded by the fact that its difficult (at least for me it has been) to get instruction..makes for a slow and bumpy ride...oh woe is me.
nah, I enjoy playing and learning...just sometimes seems its harder to come by than it needs to be.
end rant.