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Topic: 3rd right knee: which direction is better? |
John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 31 May 2008 11:56 pm |
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I followed Mike Perlowin's lead and installed a front RKL on my Mullen. Worked well on his.
But on mine the action's kinda stiff (3 raises on E9), and it's turning out to be pretty hard to push forward with my knee and grab it. To clear my rear regular RKL, I have the front one angled a bit to the right, so my knee has to go right, then forward to grab the lever, then push left. And I've had to adjust my RKL so it's further to the left than normal, otherwise it gets inadvertently engaged when pushing the other one. Aargh, it's always something!
I'm thinking that the action pushing to the right would be better, i.e. a front RKR instead; and my front LKL is pretty easy to use, so on the right it should be too. Brumley has that, now I'm understanding why, I think.
Anyone have experience with both directions and have any rational conclusions? This is a discussion of ergonomics, the changes are where I want them, just need to get it easier to use physically.
No sermons about too many levers, I know that already! I just like having complex changes available, suits my personality.
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Bob Cox
From:
Buckeye State
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Posted 1 Jun 2008 6:05 am
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| No two people have them in the exact same spot.When they work to suit you lockem down.You may have to move them forward or backward.As far as the changes go that may result in alot of combos. |
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 1 Jun 2008 6:22 am
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I've got 8 levers on one of my guitars so no lectures here. I am not surprised by your issues. I have not tried that extra right knee going left for comparison---only RKR's---but with the difficulties of getting a second lever positioned right I can only imagine how tough it would be doing the RKL in relation to the volume pedal. My second RKR is well enough positioned so that it does not require major leg shift or butt-skoot but even so it takes some practice to keep a steady foot on the VP. I have found that movements toward the inner thigh (RKL, LKR) involve more awkward geometry than outer movement in order to activate the intended lever not inadvertently move the other one. And consequently it also involves a bit more body contortion, thus complicating matters with the volume pedal.
I still do consider putting a second lever on RKL because it's the only place left with a single but I am still trying to work out the interference issue with my LKR's.
BTW---the issue is really exacerbated by having long pulls on the involved levers. Short pulls--no problem. But at the end of the long lever movement of my 6th string G#>F# lower I am hitting the 8th string E>D lever which is already so far to the right that it looks like an RKL.
Sounds like this is exactly like your problem. But add to this the fact that your right foot is held in place by the VP. |
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steve takacs
From:
beijing, china via pittsburgh (deceased)
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Posted 1 Jun 2008 8:58 am KNEE DRIFT TO THE OUTSIDE.
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| Just to elaborate on what John has said, consider the following. I'm sure most steel guitarists know this, but moves of the levers to the outside (LKL and RKR) are much easier than are those to the inside. The legs naturally want to move outward. If you have not tried this little experiment, from a seated postiion put your feet on the floor about a foot apart. Now try to relax the leg muscles. Notice which way the knees tend to drift? stev et |
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Ron !
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Posted 1 Jun 2008 9:16 am
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I have 3pulls on that knee to and they will stay stiff that way John.But I have to say that inwards is easier for me.
Ron |
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Michael Johnstone
From:
Sylmar,Ca. USA
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Posted 1 Jun 2008 10:06 am
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| I have a lever in the position of the one you're struggling with and in my case it's no problem because it's my 5th string lower B>Bb - so it's only one pull. My inside RKL is my 2nd string half-stop deal so it's also only one pull.My RKR is 4 pulls and would probably be pretty tough except for the raise assist springs and myriad of ways to set up leverage on the Excel which make it feel like 2 pulls.What I'd say in your case is to consider moving some changes around. It would only take a couple weeks to adjust to and it may give you what you are after in the long run.I don't think there's a problem with that lever's basic placement; it just needs to be tweaked to suit the individual.Another alternative would be - and this would only work if the changes on the lever in question were raises - is to try to rig up some adjustable raise assist springs for those pulls. Every steel should have them anyway. |
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Charles Curtis
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Posted 1 Jun 2008 10:06 am
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| I have two RKL, the one in front pulls the lst and 6th string; the one in the rear pulls the lst,2nd and 7th strings and is a little to the left of the one in front and it has more travel. Billy Cooper of BillyCoopersMusic.com did the work for me and it's great, no trouble at all. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 1 Jun 2008 11:02 am
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John, here's a suggestion. Get a one day promotional pass at a gym, and try out the machines that exercise your thigh muscles, and see which is easier for you to use, the one where you pull in, or the one where you push out.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 1 Jun 2008 11:10 am Re: 3rd right knee: which direction is better?
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| John McClung wrote: |
| ... my RKL .. gets inadvertently engaged when pushing the other one. |
Mine does too, which is why I put my 2nd string raise (I tune the string to C# and raise it to D#) and my 11th string lower to C# on that lever.
Musically, it actually works quite well. The changes on the 2 levers work extremely well together. If the inner lever didn't engage naturally while I worked the outer one, (which lowers the G#s to G natural) I'd figure out a way to make it happen.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Bobby Boggs
From:
Upstate SC.
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Posted 1 Jun 2008 9:02 pm
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| For staggard right knee's. I like mine to be RKL and outside where I have to reach just a tad to get it.Load it light.I have my 6th string whole lower and my 7th string 1/2 tone lower there.I love it.But it's not for everyone. |
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John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
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Posted 2 Jun 2008 9:11 pm
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I never had (3)-RK's, but; John Hughey did and his extra lever was a RKL. I don't remember what it did or which neck it was on. If I remember correctly, it was on the C6-Neck, but; I could be wrong about that!
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<marquee> Go~Daddy~Go, (No), Go, It's your Break Time</marquee> L8R, jb
My T-10 Remington Steelmaster |
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 3 Jun 2008 2:54 pm
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Mike Johnstone (and anyone else): my Mullen doesn't have raise helpers, I'm not even sure what those do or how they work. Can those be added to guitars where they're not a factory standard?
Good thoughts from everyone, thanks. My front RKL raises strings 1 and 2 a whole and a half, plus string 7 up a half. A lot to ask. When rear RKL gets activated, it really sours that open major chord with all the nice unisons on strings 1-6.
And after reflection, it does seem like it'd be easier to push forward and nudge a front RKR. I think on paper the RKL seemed easier, no reversing mechanism needed; and I thought it'd be less difficult to work and keep the volume pedal steady.
I also realize that when pushing right with your knee, there's more of an angle to your leg, so it should be easier to clear the rear RKR without inadvertently engaging it slightly.
More lab experiments needed!
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E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 4 Jun 2008 10:26 pm
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I might try making the front RKL my primary change (E's to D#) and the rear, which is normally my main RKL, that "extra" lever, it seems a little easier to pull back my leg for an occasional grab, rather than push out and over to the left. And then I won't activate both RKL's inadvertently.
More news when I've experimented with that.
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
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John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
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Posted 4 Jul 2008 8:45 pm
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I saw Paul Franklin last Sat. night and I noticed that he has two RK'sR, but; when he uses one, he folds the other one into the up-position. The main reason I noticed was because the mounting-screw on one of them wasn't quite tight enough and it kept falling down on top of his right-knee! Apparently one KL works on E9 and the other on C6!
_________________
<marquee> Go~Daddy~Go, (No), Go, It's your Break Time</marquee> L8R, jb
My T-10 Remington Steelmaster |
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 4 Jul 2008 10:48 pm
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Thanks for the scouting report, John Bechtel!
On my MSA D-12, I had the same type of thing, a special 2nd RKL that I'd fold down for that neck, folding up E9's RKL. Worked great. That C6 lever was a cool double stop: top and middle C's going to C#; then top C continuing up to D, and middle C dropping BACK to C. Tricky to get all the pitches correct at the mechanical half stop point, but it worked almost perfectly accurately.
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
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