Cross harp technique for steel?

Greg Gefell · From: Upstate NY

What would be a good starting point for applying a cross harp technique to soloing on non pedal steel?

I was thinking about how:

So how do I flip that pattern on its ear like a harp player would and get access to the bluesy notes?

I believe it involves playing in a key a 4th higher but when I try playing a C diatonic scale over music in G something's just not quite right.

Richard Cooper · From: Eads,TN,USA

To play 12 bar blues you would use the C harp to play in G.
You have to bend the reeds by drawing very hard to get the blue notes.

Matthew Prouty · From: Warsaw, Poland

The cross harp position is a 4th up from the key of the harp (for anyone wondering). There is a pattern that is laid out beautifully for blues, swing and the such on a 6th tuning. Its also a 4th up from the root position. The first note of this position starts a step below, but the anchor portion of the position is around the 4th. So if you are playing over an A chord you center around the D fret. I learned this from the Master himself, the late great Jeff Newman. He called it the O.B.A.I.L. position or "Oh Boy Am I Lost". You can get a lot out of this position. I know his courses are for pedal steel, but his C6th courses cover vast amounts of single string work. Once you learn the positions for the 1, 4 and 5 you can really go to town on a blues song.

Stephan Miller · From: Silver Spring, Maryland, USA

Look at the differences between the major scale (is this what you mean by "diatonic"?) and the blues scale. IMO, you'll get closer to what you want by using the notes in an F major scale to play blues in G-- i.e. playing Bb, instead of the B in the C major scale.

Learn to visualize and play a blues scale-- with its flatted 3rd and 7th notes-- in a fret box. If you play in a "sixth" tuning, one very productive location for blues is centered "3 frets up" from the tonic or I chord fret. Both the b3 and b7 are there. Other good places to base a blues fret box are "2 frets down" from the I chord, and "5 frets up".

Greg Gefell · From: Upstate NY

Thanks Stephan and Matthew, I will give those ideas a try.

Denny Turner · From: Oahu, Hawaii USA

Cross harp theory applied to Steel:

Pardon any typos here; Trying hard to edit out any; My extended family is gathered for my dear Mom's passing to Glory .....5,000 miles away and I can't get there; So I need some different thinking / "distraction" after a very long week. If there is an error here I'm sure someone will see and rectify it:

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A diatonic or pseudo-diatonic harmonica is a Maj7 scale for the key of the harmonica. HOWEVER, a IMaj7 scale is the same identical notes as a V7 scale; So although the notes of a C diatonic harmonica are CMaj7, ...they are also the same notes as G7. Blowing out through a C diatonic or psuedo-diatonic harmonica produces CMaj triad chord / notes; While sucking back through the harmonica plays the remaining notes of CMaj7 scale WHICH ARE TGE SAME NOTES AS G7 CHORD / NOTES. So playing cross-harp on a C diatonic harmonica is actually playing Dom7 in the key of G Major; And the signature character and center around which cross-harp is played, is indeed that G7 chord up on the high end. ~~~~~~~ Now, when a I, IV, V song in G Major goes to the IV chord, that IV chord is C; And the harp's CMaj7 scale notes are identical, and modal, to G7 .....ie right in harmony between the harp's playing theme and the accompanyment (with some technique finesse said later). When the chord change goes to the "V", the C triad blowing out on the harmonica is the Dom7 extension notes for D7: C triad = C E G is D scale / chord's 7, 9, 4 ie D11 ...and that 4th note is why it is so often tongued closed to not clash with a IV7 chord and/or accompanyment; HOWEVER, CMaj7 is also Dm7 which is modal to G7 and CMaj7 ....all the same notes which works just as well in phrasing and passing as the Imin7 Blues scale does over a Major key.

NOW; On a 6th tuned steel we have the very same situation existing in the frets-box that a 6th chord sits in: The 6th chord is actually sitting in a Dom7 box, NOT a Maj7 box as might be expected by the name "6th chord". 2 frets down from any 6th chord is the fret where the Dom7 extensions of that Dom7 scale are located: The full C6 chord on a 6 string is = C E G A C E (and a variant / inversion of those notes are also on a 7, 8, 10 string steel depending upon how the player desired to string it); And moving that full chord down 2 frets gives us Bb D F G Bb D which is b7, 9, 11, 5, b7, 9; Can't get much more Blues and Jazzy than that! ...all stacked up in proper harmony sequence and straight bar to boot! ....and almost the identical notes & voicing you get from sucking cross-harp! MUCH of Jr. Brown's voicings and licks are down there on the Dom7 fret of whatever Major chord is happening.

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Approaching things from the min7 / Blues scale perspective: The Blues scale is derived from the minor7 notes (scale if you will). The min7 box is formed by the 3rd and 5th fret up from the root 6th chord. In other words, Gm7 scale notes are located 3 and 5 frets above G6, up at Bb6 and C6. And a signature voicing (1 b3 5 in this case) resides on the lower fret of this min7 box, ....around which you will find many familiar slide-guitar licks, technique and tricks as well as the Blues Scale notes in that whole 2-fret box. ~~~~~~~ For minor 2-fret boxes, a signature voicing always exists on the lower fret of the box, ...while for Major boxes, a signature chord always resides on the higher fret in it's box, ...and thus why the 6th chord is on the upper end of it's box and it's Dom7 extensions are on the lower fret of it's box. And again notice that the Gm7 scale notes are identical to C7 scale notes. ~~~~~~~ Ever wonder why simply changing a tonic Major to a minor will sub for a IVMaj chord? It's because of just what was shown in this paragraph: Im7 and IV7 notes are identical: Cmin7 = C D Eb F G A Bb C and F7 = F G A Bb C D Eb F ! And even the tonic triad C Eb G is notes 5, b7 and 9 for the IV root F. Well shootz, ...that means that our Imin7 Blues scale notes and grip don't even have to change when the song's chord goes to IV; And I'll be darn, ...our position doesn't have to change for the V chord either! "Just like" the blues harpist playing on one array of fixed notes.

To take it even farther (for harp ...but rolling back into Steel): Again, ...cross harp works because the IMaj7 and V7 notes are identical and in mode (sorta, needing some thoughtful note management of the 4th notes). SO if you want to play MINOR harp in the key of G minor (Gm7 = Blues scale notes) ...simply choose an F harp for blowing the Maj7 "grip" (FMaj7 and Gmin7 notes are identical), which will also work in cross harp because FMaj7 and Bb7 notes are identical to Gmin7! If experimenting with this technique / approach for the first time (on either harp or steel), ....DON'T PLAY FAMILIAR LICKS while exploring a new box at first; But just play with all the notes and harmonies in the box / grip and you will find allot of stuff, even inversions of your already known licks but relative to a different scale tone in the new box's new scale / mode. ~~~~~~~ SO, ...with both a min7 notes harp and a Dom7 notes harp in hand to swap off between, you get the best of both min7 Blues scale notes and Dom7 Blues notes; Same thing on steel by moving betwen min7 and Dom7 fret-boxes. ~~~~~~~ To take it even farther: Notice that in a IMaj, VImin, IVMaj, VMaj song (C, Am, F, G for example), ...the IMaj7 scale is the scale / mode notes that work throughout those chord changes; Which tells us that we can use a C harp to play Pure Minor (min7b6) IN THE KEY OF Amin (Amin7b6 = A B C D E F G A); So again, two harps in hand (min7 and min7b6) affords allot of flavor when playing in minor. ~~~~~~~ And since most harp players already play Dom7 cross-harp over minor keys anyway, we have just shown that 3 harps in hand (Dom7, min7, and min7b6) will cover even more ground; AND we have established that (on harp anyway) Dom7 licks can be played over Major or minor just like the min7 Blues scale notes can be played over either minor or Major (albeit with some practiced musicianship).

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AND VOILA ....it brings us right back to Steel guitar where the very same approaches to scale / mode / chord substitution work. And not only work but are the very basis, math and language for how we can play all qualities (Maj or minor and their extensions) of keys and notes by subbing the boxes for each other to get the different qualities (aka modes) afforded by the 6th tuned Steel (and fragmented and/or distorted boxes present in any other tuning as well).

6th-Tuning scales / chords / modes reference chart:
http://dennysguitars.com/092901_5.html
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Denny T~
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Stephan Miller · From: Silver Spring, Maryland, USA

Hey Denny-- first and foremost... sorry to hear about the passing of your mother. I am keeping a good thought for you and your family. My Dad left us a couple years ago, and I know that words don't get it, but-- my sympathies, amigo.

Hadn't visited your website in a while...just got back. Now there's a place to go walkabout!

--Steve

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

I watched a Danny Gatton video, and he was talkin' about soloing in the key of E. He also advocated the "two frets down" approach. So D in the key of E. But he added that it was even better to think of the similarity to D of Bm and Bm7th scales. And, of course, Danny's idea of the perfect E7th chord, was a Dmajor chord! You hear that all through his music.

Danny Bates · From: Fresno, CA. USA

Denny, I'm so sorry to hear about your Mother. May God Bless You in these trying times. My deepest sympathy.
You are a credit to the Steel Guitar community and what you said here regarding harmonica is priceless.

I would like to add something relating to blues steel.

Greg, I think there is a much easier way to play blues on a lap steel rather than relating it to a harmonica. If you can add this to what Denny said you will have all of your bases covered.

A pentatonic scale is often overlooked due to it's simplicity. It's just the 1,2,3,5,6 of the major scale. However, when these notes are played 3 frets up from the blues key, they match perfectly in a blues format. Just add the "Blue" notes and the scale is complete. This scale works over ALL of the changes in I,IV,V blues

For example... If you take a typical I, IV, V blues song in G with all of the chords being dominant 7th chords, the Bb Pentatonic scale notes (starting on G) are G,Bb,C,D,F,G.. BTW, the "blue" notes are just "grace" notes and they are C# and F#

This is why I feel a lap steel tuned to any of the 6th tunings is perfect for the blues. It is also why I believe the C6 pedal steel is perfect as a jazz instrument... but that's another story.

George Piburn · From: The Land of Enchantment New Mexico

Greg Gefell · From: Upstate NY

Thanks to everyone for all their suggestions and demonstrations. This gives me alot to chew on and digest. After practicing some of these ideas, I think the fog is lifting.

Joe Savage · From: St. Paul, MN

Cross harp is the Mixolydian mode.
_________________
Joe Savage
www.savagejoe.com

Chuck Fisher · From: Santa Cruz, California, USA * R.I.P.

Indeed Mr Savage! This gets confused often, one must ask G is the 2nd of what key? F of course. F is G Dorian mode, correct for Gmin7...

G is the 5th of what key? C C = myxolydian mode correct for G7 rock etc.

thinking of this backwards is the Com-mode which is correct for what it sounds like, eh?

George Piburn · From: The Land of Enchantment New Mexico

GeorgeBoards Educational Channel on youtube: SteelGuitarCamp has added another Blues Scale Video.

This one is all located at the 12th Fret Key of C Major and shows how to find the Flat 3rd and Flat 7th Scale Tones Very Easily within one fret from Straight across the 12th Fret.

Check it out!!

GeorgeBoard

Dave Bader · From: Pennsylvania, USA

Does anyone know where I can get a layout of the c6 fret board like the one in the Cindy Cashdollar books? Maybe in a pdf type file.

Sonny Jenkins · From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx

What a great thread!!!,,,what some great contributions!!!!,,in depth Denny,,,demonstrations George,,,you guys are fantastic!!!! Now THIS is family!!!!

Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

Wow ! And to think that at the age of 16 I just picked up a harmonica and ten minutes later I was playing it. I never knew what scale I was playing. All I knew was that to play the blues you needed a harmonica in the subdominant to what the song was being sung in. I doubt if one blues harmonica player in a thousand understands what he's doing, transcriptionwise, from Sonny Boy Williamson on down... Shocked

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