The Steel Guitar Forum

Just curious, PSG newbie and have been using my 68 vibrolux with 2 JBLs. What else is everyone else using? Has anyone ever used a hiwatt?

Hey Jonathan,
I have used Hiwatt amps for steel. The old ones are fantastic. The KT88 power tubes are in my opinion the best for steel guitar. The problem is Hiwatts are big and heavy. Twice the size and weight of Nash400s and twins. The heck with that stuff !

Jonathan - I mostly use a '64 Vibroverb Custom (the reissue BF with SRV mods that actually work great for steel, with more headoom and power), a '69 Pro Reverb or a Holland Littl Jimi, about the same power level and a 2x10 like the Vibrolux. Mine has Weber Chicagos in it.

At home I usually plug into a '64 black-tolex covered "tweed" Champ - the last of the tweed box/circuit types, which is unbelievably strong sounding with my GFI Ultra or my Fenders. Also a '58 Princeton, which is essentially the same thing in a Deluxe-sized cabinet with a tone control.

I have not tried a Hiwatt, but I've used several Ampegs, which are little similar in that they have tons of headroom. A V4 (or VT22 - same thing in a cambo box) makes a great steel amp - add a little delay and you're set for traditional clean playing. But I've also plugged into a Bogner Uberschall that sounded amazing, and a Soldano that didn't quite sound right.

One other thing that works well is just about any modern bass rig. I was a working bass player for years, and still have 2 SWR's - one a 2x8 Baby Blue combo and the other a PB200 head with a 2x10 bass driver cab. They both sound fantastic for clean steel, as did my old monster-of-a-rack rig: Ibanez preamp, Crest (later a QSC) 1200 watt power amp and a couple Acme Low-B cabinets. They all have EQ sections that allow for higher-frequencies than older bass amps to accommodate the poppers and slappers and contrary to what some believe you can dial in enough treble to make your ears bleed. Bass rigs are made alot like keyboard amps nowadays - very full range, which is what Steel guitar needs played in the traditional manner.

For me though (I play with a warmer, right-on-the-edge-of-breakup sound,) the 40-50 watt Fender tube amps work great, and sound FAR better than a Twin Reverb turned up to "3". Proper servicing (cap jobs if they are 20 years old), good tubes and the right biasing for YOUR sound, and good speakers are key.

I have a few tube amps, including a B/F Twin Reverb and a Super Twin Reverb. Still, the S/S Peavey SC-212 goes with me most of the time. I like really clean tones, and when I'm in a live band setting, the transistors do that as well as the tubes.

Super-big gigs demand the Super Twin, running 2 twelves and 2 fifteens. Vintage-loving producers and singers sometimes request the B/F Twin (for aesthetics, mostly).

I have a hiwatt custom 50 2 input, that i might check out soon. I was curious because i talked to a guy playing who felt that larger speakers were the way to go with pedal steel. I do really love the sound of vibrolux i use, but i am just curious what it would be like with 12's or even a 15".

Jonathan Lam wrote:Just curious, PSG newbie and have been using my 68 vibrolux with 2 JBLs. What else is everyone else using? Has anyone ever used a hiwatt?

'65 Vibrolux Reverb here (won't go near it with a steel, though....). Also use a '96 Custom Vibrasonic that's quite good for steel.
I'm wondering what your steel sounds like through your Vibrolux with 2x10s and a ~35 watt output. Or do you have this modded somehow?

Steel King

Steve, my Holland is somewhat similar with 35 watts output and a 2x10 setup. It works great for steel (and although I do not use reverb on most amps, I do on this one as it has the 3-knob Fender outboard circuit built into the preamp, which blows one-knob spring reverb to smithereens!)

The keys are 1) output tubes, 2) bias, 3) preamp tube and 4) speakers.

Assuming, of course, that the amp is properly serviced and has good filter caps, you need tubes (at least if you're looking for traditional clean-steel tones) that will provide headroom. First, change the V2 tube (second preamp tube, which runs the vibrato channel) to a 5751 - this is a slightly lower gain 12AX7 type and helps keep from overdriving the poswer amp.

Then you need good, strong, well-matched 6L6's. With 6-string it's often better to have the matching off a bit for richer harmonics, but not for steel. Precise matching is essential for clean sound. DO NOT buy into the hype of color-coded or distortion-rated "boutique" tubes (i.e. GT), as the matching is done in groups of "close". They're also NO different than mass-marketed, less expensive tubes...just marketed really well.

I prefer certain NOS (new old stock) US tubes for clean tones, especially the Philips STR387, which was engineered specifically for the inverted physical position on Fender guitar amps. Sylvanias and RCA's are also great tubes, but all are expensive. For new tubes, I prefer JJ's - I've had great success and if you call Eurotubes and tell them exactly what you are trying to do they can recommend the best tube for you, and also how to bias them correctly. Hopefully your VR has been modified (is a silverface) for adjustable bias, and you know how to do it; if not, you'll need a tech's help (or purchase a Bias Rite from www.tedweber.com, which will make the whole process easy and adjustable in minutes.

Generally, you want to bias them on the slightly cold side - not so cold that they sound brittle and harsh, but to increase headroom. You really have to adjust the bias while playing to find your "sweet spot". I'd start (with good tubes) around 28-30ma and work down a couple ma at a time until it sounds a little sterile, them creep back up - that should be the spot.

Last, this all depends on the speakers you have in it. Typical low-power Fender-labeled speakers (Jensen, Utah, Oxford etc) will break up early, and the Oxford and Utahs I'd replace even if NOT playing steel! CTS ceramics can usually cut it and sound very good; My other choice for clean steel would be Weber California 109's which are not expensive and based on a JBL-like headroom capability. The paper dustcap models sound warmer than the aluminum models IMO. In my amp I have Chicagos, but I also bias hotter and like a little earlier breakup.

However, a VR can be setup as a clean-machine and will have a surprising amount of volume. Players are often confused by power output vs volume; i.e. 50 watts, all else being relatively equal, is only about 3db lower than a 100-watt amp...to halve the maximum volume of a 100-watter, you drop to a 10 watt amp (again, all else being equal, and these are rough numbers - everything is NOT always equal. But a VR set up properly can be nearly as loud as a Twin, and sometimes ouder than one that has not been serviced or set up well.

Hope that helps -

Jim

Steel King with solid state valves for PSG and '65 reissue Deluxe Reverb for lap steel.


Greg

Fender Steel King for steel. 1967 Vibrolux Reverb w/Weber speakers for guitar.

I have a 1970 SF Twin for double duty, and a Deluxe Reissue for Tele gigs.

I have a reissue brownface Fender Vibroverb with 2x10" Weber California speakers as my main amp for smaller gigs with (volume-wise) disciplined bands. For larger gigs, or gigs with very loud guitarists/drummers, I also add my Fender Steel King or my steelified Fender Super Twin Reverb.

-- Jan

I just started playing pedal steel in january and I am not playing any shows that require tremendous volume. It was just most appropriate for what i had to use(the other options being a Traynor bass master(plexi style), the hiwatt, and a Vox clone).

Out of those three the Traynor would be the ultimate clean-machine. They are not a plexi clone (I've had several Traynors and worked on many more) - they have an EL34 output stage but a lower-gain Fender-like preamp, and are super-clean just about all the way up unless biased pretty darned hot. If you have a Traynor that is breaking up like a plexi Marshall, it needs a cap job and I found that almost every Traynor I got or serviced had never had any service at all. Every single one was way overdue for filter caps, and those will definitely kill your headroom.

Traynors are WAY under the radar - they are built like tanks, easy to work on, have a nice warm clean tone and can still be found at reasonable prices. I'd take that Bassmaster, make sure it's properly serviced, combine it with a good speaker cab (a good match for steel and that amp would be Weber Californias - JBL-like clean with better power handling and not expensive) and let it rip. If you need reverb get a Holy Grail, or go the route I do (and a few others) and use an analog (or decent analog-sounding) delay unit, which doesn't wash out your tone as much as reverb - plus it covers all frequencies where reverb primarily accents the highs.

As far as clean headroom and volume a 50-watt Traynor will bury most Twin Reverbs.

I use a Steel King.

The tele player in my blues group has a SF Vibrolux Reverb he leaves in my practice space. I tried it for pedal steel. I don't care for the 10" speakers with steel. I plugged 12s and 15s into it, and it sounds just like the Dual or a Twin, with less volume.

For pedal steel, I use a silver-face Princeton Reverb for acoustic jams (I'd like to put a 12" speaker in it). I have a SF Pro Reverb in my rehearsal room. It has a 4 ohm 15" JBL speaker. Sometimes I use a stock SF Pro Reverb in the studio, because it is there, and sounds good. For most gigs I use a SF Dual Showman Reverb head (same chassis as a SF Twin). For country, I think 15s sound best, and I love JBL D130Fs with the usual metal dust cap. For blues/rock, I have a 2x12 cab (Jensens) that cuts through the mix better. For some loud bands in rock clubs that don't mike the amps, I use a Super Twin Reverb in a head cab with two JBL 15s in separate cabs.

I've also borrowed from guitar players a SF Deluxe and a Hot Rod Deluxe. They just didn't have enough clean headroom for me on pedal steel, but of course they were set up for guitar players.

I've tried many bass amps for steel. The tone is usually kind of blah, and they usually have either 10s or cross-over networks with horns, and those speaker systems sound too harsh with steel for me.

Because of the way the volume pedal is typically used with pedal steel, and the need for lots of clean headroom, in general I need 100 watts of tube power. And I prefer 12" or 15" guitar speakers.

I don't care for solid-state tone.

The bass player in teh band is actually using the bass master for bass. It has had a cap job and for guitar it was a tad too touchy for me. I will give it a go though. The 2x12 cab speaker cab i own has a eminence red fang and an eminence wizard, its a pretty bright pair. This is real interesting to me, I just started playing so I am not sure of sounds yet.

Where do I start? I use a lot of different amps for different applications, including Fenders. Of course, it very much depends on what you want to sound like.

To play with purely acoustic players - to raise the level of my steel or guitar just to the level of, let's say, an acoustic guitar or dobro - a '68 silverface Vibro Champ. No, it doesn't give a lot of bottom end - but doing this kind of thing, they'd toss me out on my ear if I had a big, phat sound - it would drown them out.

To play in a small, amplified but mainly acoustic ensemble with either a very light-touched, minimalist drummer or no drummer - a blackface Deluxe Reverb with a white-label EV SRO 12" speaker. I agree with Jim Sliff on the 5751 preamp tube in the second preamp position (this is the front-end preamp tube for the "Vibrato" channel, which is what I use) and a slightly cool bias - maybe 21 or 22 ma per tube for the 6V6's. Of course that depends on the tube. I put it on the meter and listen as I'm biasing. My amps have a repro back panel with a millivoltmeter directly wired to the tube sockets and a switch to engage/disengage each tube.

I have a blackface Vibrolux Reverb, but like David Doggett, I don't really care for the 10" speakers for pedal steel at that kind of volume. I find them OK at a very low volume, but when they get turned up, the bass just goes away. I prefer the Deluxe Reverb with the 12" speaker. But for Telecaster, I don't think it's possible to equal, much less beat, a Vibrolux Reverb.

For louder gigs with a "normal" (read "fairly loud") drummer, a '69 Dual Showman Reverb head into an EV-loaded cabinet or a Twin Reverb will do nicely. Again, I use a 5751 for the second preamp tube and a bit cooler than "normal" (i.e., lead guitar) bias.

I agree with Jim on power tubes for high-power Fender amps. I strongly prefer NOS matched tubes. The Philips/Sylvania STR387 is a fine tube, but getting kinda' hard to find and pricey. Still, to me, the ultimate high-power 6L6 is the Philips/Sylvania 7581a/6L6GC STR pickup. They're available, but even at the cheapest source I know of (www.angela.com), they're $100/tube - so retubing a Dual Showman/Twin Reverb is $400. I settle for the Philips/Sylvania 6L6WGB at $30/tube there. They sound pretty good and seem to be holding up in my DS/Twin Reverbs.

Unlike David, I am not against the solid-state sound. I often use my Peavey Tubefex into a high-power GK bass head, into the same EV-loaded cabinet, and I just picked up a Nashville 400 that I like a lot. For my more modern pedal steels with Lawrence or Tonealigner pickups, these are very hard to beat for beautiful, clean pedal steel tone, to my tastes at least. But for old Sho Bud pickup or TrueTone pickup loaded guitars, the Fenders are hard to beat - to me, at least.

That's another important point - the interaction between the pickup, volume pedal, effects, and amp is very important. To me, there is no "correct" setup - one needs to listen with one's ears and go from there.

I also echo everything said about those old Traynor amps. Set up right, they're nice - I found the ones I played a bit limited on the EQ - they were a hair midrangey - but just a smidgen of outboard EQ from something like a Boss GE-7 or a semi-parametric unit fixed that.

Is that Hi Watt an old or new one? I had an early 70s DR-103, that sucker would rattle the windows to the point of breaking around 3 or 4. Clean and round all the way up, to the point where you go catatonic from the volume. To me, Hi Watts are somewhat variable, depending on the era. But a good HiWatt Custom 50 is a fine amp - I'd check it out for sure.

Eminence Red Fang and Wizard? Might be fine if you're looking for a pretty bright, distorted sound. The Wizard is pretty much a replacement for the Celestion G12H - pretty much standard issue in a Marshall JCM 800 or 900. The Red Fang is a little sweeter more like in a 70s Marshall. But I wouldn't be happy with the cleanness of the bottom end of those. Between a high-power Peavey Black Widow, a high-power EV speaker, or something in the higher power-range from JBL or Weber, or one of the Eminence Commonwealth speakers, there should be something that will give you some clean juice - if that's what you want. But if you want distorted, maybe just try what you have.

Just another set of experiences and opinions.

Traynors do rule. They are amazing amps, I have 2 guitar mate combos and they rip.

The hiwatt i have is like an 1980 2 hole custom. The cabinet is for when i play in rock n roll bands, so looking into getting different speakers or picking up a 1x15 cab for steel. I have too much stuff jammed into my little apt already.

Why is so much bass response desired?

I have an Evans AE200 with 2x8s and a raezer's edge cabinet but that is also 2x8, although its ported and the bass response is quite good. I feel like 8inch speakers are like little lasers, not enough spread.

Part of using the vibrolux is not having to carry more gear as i use my guitar with it. and i dont have any gigs where i am just bringing pedal steel...

Clearly I am a gear whore. There is more also...

Jonathan Lam wrote:Why is so much bass response desired?

I don't prefer big speakers for steel because of the bass response. If the amp has enough clean power, you can get all the bass you need from 10s. But for me, the 10s are too piercing in the highs. Because of the single bridge pickup, and the solid plank body (doesn't even have a neck joint) most steels really accentuate the highs. 12s and 15s fatten and mellow out the highs, and have a nice throaty mid-range growl. So it's the overall voice of the bigger speakers that I prefer for steel, not just the bass response.

But I love the sound of 10s for regular guitar, especially solid bodies like teles and strats. Steel is a different animal.

I use a 1973 Vibrosonic with a JBL D130 original and have it split into two pieces to deal with the weight issue. Have never heard a better steel guitar amp, JMHO.
Gene Brown

My main beefs with 10" speakers for PSG - in a typical enclosure - are that, to my tastes,

- The bass doesn't hold together when a clean amp is turned up. This is particularly true on the lower strings for C6 or E9/B6 universal. Instead, to my ears, they seem to go into a higher vibrational mode. That may be fine sometimes, but I don't want to be stuck with that.

- They just don't move anywhere near as much air - I think that's a good part of why 4x10" Super Reverb or Tweed Bassman amps work so well. Remember a speaker's face area is proportional to the radius squared. A 12" speaker has 44% more area than a 10" speaker, and a 15" has 125% more.

- They are significantly more directional, as you point out.

- I don't know if this is exactly the right way to describe it, but the larger speakers just sound much more "smooth" to me. I expect that is a combination of all these factors.

To me, a good set of 10" speakers are just perfect for country guitar, or even blues or rock guitar, depending on the guitar. But for a jazz guitar sound, I want a bigger speaker - usually a 15". I think even most rock and blues guitar players - in most situations - go for a 12" speaker - Super Reverb and Tweed Bassman excepted. That 4x10 configuration really does work great for guitar.

Of course, the cabinet matters also - one can get significantly extended low-frequency response by designing the cabinet for that. I've tried a couple of cabs with 8" or 10" speakers designed that way - quite a few jazz guitar players use cabs like this, and this or smaller is the norm for acoustic instruments. To me, they worked OK for lower volumes - I think it would be fine when playing moderately for a quiet, listening crowd in a small-medium sized room. But when the volume was pushed to my typical gigging band volumes, they turned to mush, and I don't play in a real loud band - but there is a drummer with a full kit.

I also agree with David that the overall frequency response is quite different for a 12" or 15" speaker. Again, the cabinet matters a lot here. But in the typical semi-open-back enclosure, I prefer the larger speaker.

My main cab is a very heavy-duty homemade Thiele-Small design with a 12" EVM-12L. That cab definitely has a bit of extended bass response, and a fairly even overall frequency response, which holds together pretty well as I turn it up. I love it for steel guitar.

To me, there are no absolute rules. All this depends on what kind of sound you're going for. I'm talking about a typical clean pedal steel guitar sound. If you want some dirt, you may want to think about this completely differently.

I love the sound of 10s for regular guitar, especially solid bodies like teles and strats. Steel is a different animal.

I agree, David. My blackface Vibrolux Reverb is great for guitar... it sounds like a dream. But it's no good for pedal steel IMHO. I can't believe an amp can sound so good for guitar and so terrible for pedal steel.

Do you guys bring different amps for gigs when you double on guitar then when you are strictly playing steel?

It depends on what type of guitar style I'm playing. If I'm using a loud, clean amp for PSG, then unless I want a real clean guitar sound, I either need to bring along a smaller amp or use a modeler like the Pod. But if I want a real clean guitar sound, I just bring along the PSG amp - nothing wrong with a Twin or Dual Showman Reverb for guitar, but unless it's a pretty big stage, no way can I turn it up like I could a Deluxe or Vibrolux.

It's a rare day that I'm not expected to play at least a little bit of guitar.