The Steel Guitar Forum

Ok, I never learned the whole music theory thing so I'm starting now. Here is my question: A minor?
I II bIII IV V bVI bVII I
A B C D E F G A
I understand why there is no Cb 'cause it would be a B right? Now, why no Gb? It's really bothering me. Maybe it's a typo(yeah right!). Between F and G is a whole step so Gb/F# exists, right?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks Again,
Joel

Sorry the diagram went bad.
[tab]
I II bIII IV V bVI bVII I
A B C D E F G A
[/tab]

Thanks,
Joel

In an A major scale, the notes C, F, and G are sharp. By lowering them and changing them into a minor scale, they become natural, or just C, F, and G (without any sharp or flat). Hope this helps.

There are 3 types of minor scales;
Pure, Harmonic and Melodic
Pure: A B C D E F G A
Harmonic:A B C D E F G# A (Raised 7th step)
Melodic: A B C D E F# G# A (Raised 6th & 7th going up)
Going back down is the same form as the pure minor
Good luck

Joel, Good question. Without getting into the church modes and blues scales etc... I will use what we all use the most and that is the relative minor. The minor scale you are using takes on the key signature of C Major. CDEFGABC. No sharps or flats. e minor would be the same as G Major. EF#GABCDE or GABCDEF#G.
So, dminor - F Major. f#minor - A Major etc. It is a minor 3rd below the Major. Hope this helps.
Joe

Thanks a bunch guys. I kind of get it but the Am doesn't fit the pattern there at the end. That's what I was going by. I guess I'll just have to remmember that. For the major scales I'm going by the Note Finder diagram and everything fits. I thought that the minor would be the same, no pie diagram, but I thought the pattern would fit similiar. I'll just keep reading and hopefully it'll come together.
Thanks Again,
Joel...out

PS Many more questions to come.

Joel Alvarez wrote:Thanks a bunch guys. I kind of get it but the Am doesn't fit the pattern there at the end.

Joel, sure Am fits the pattern. Perhaps this is where you're getting tripped up:

In your diagram, you are writing, for example bIII and then putting the C underneath it, and then wondering why the C isn't flatted to a Cb (or a B). That's because the C has ALREADY been flatted. The bIII you wrote is not telling you to START flatting the C; it's telling you that the C has ALREADY BEEN flatted (from a C#, which would normally be the note in the scale of A-major). Same for the F and G, they have ALREADY BEEN flatted from F# and G#, as Chris Buchanan noted in his post.

Now does it make sense?

OK, well what that seems to mean is that minor, blues, and whatever are relative to the major scale? The major will exactly fit the pattern but all others are relative to the major?
So then you adjust according to the major scale, right? It doesn't mean that you have to actually play a flat but to flat or half step down according to the major scale? I guess you will always half step or flat/sharp the target note.
OK hopefully you can follow this(just an example please bear with me): If the variation scale calls for a bIII and the note is already flat in the major then it will wind up actually being regular.
Just use the major as a skeleton if the target note is # in the major it will wind up regular bacause the minor calls for what is ever in that position to be flated. In other words the Roman numeral flat or sharp is an order not an actuality. It is telling you to flat or sharp it, not to play it as a sharp or flat.
Holy cow!!! My brain is fried! If this is right then there is hope, if not then more sleepness nights are to come!!!
Guys I truly appreciate it. I hope I can return the generousity someday. I'll try to shorten the posts from now on.
Thanks Again,
Joel...over and out.
For the moderator: Feel free to do with this post what you will. Sorry so long .

In a major scale, half-steps occur between the 3rd and 4th, and between the 7th and 8th steps -- right? In a minor scale, those shift to between 2nd and 3rd and 6th and 7th steps (down one step). Taking the C scale as model, there are half-steps between E and F (3rd and 4th), and between B and C (7th and 8th). So, as in your diagram, there are already (always) half steps between B and C and E and F.

Before working with minor scales one should have a firm understanding of major scales, the circle of 5ths and key signitures. I doesn't look to me like you do. I suggest a book like maybe, "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Music Theory." It's alot easier to learn this stuff if it's presented in a systematic way.

Joel Alvarez wrote: If the variation scale calls for a bIII and the note is already flat in the major then it will wind up actually being regular.
Just use the major as a skeleton if the target note is # in the major it will wind up regular bacause the minor calls for what is ever in that position to be flated. In other words the Roman numeral flat or sharp is an order not an actuality. It is telling you to flat or sharp it, not to play it as a sharp or flat.

Joel, you are correct! You DO use the major scale as your reference point to construct the minor scales. Then the formulas tell you which notes you must flatten (lower by 1/2 step) in order to make that particular type of minor scale. And, yes, if the note was already a flat or a sharp note in the major scale, then it does become a 'regular' note. So, for example, let's say you want to play an A minor scale, using the formula you posted above. First think about the A major scale which already has 3 sharps in it (C#, F# and G#) as follows: A B C# D E F# G# A. Now to MAKE it into a minor scale, you're going to flat (lower by 1/2 step) the 3rd, 6th, and 7th tones. So you'll make the C# a C natural, the F# becomes F natural, and the G# becomes G natural.

Now, you'll notice that the minor scale is: A B C D E F G A, which is EXACTLY the same notes as the C major scale, but starting and ending on A instead of C. (On a piano, they are all the white notes). Because they share all the same notes, the A minor scale is called the RELATIVE MINOR of the C major scale. Because they are closesly RELATED, sharing all of the same notes. So instead of hurting your brain to create the minor scale, you could try this:

1) Think of a scale you want to play as a minor; let's say B minor.

2) Count up 1.5 steps above B and you get D (just as C in our earlier example is 1.5 steps above the A that you wanted the minor scale for). So in our new example, we count from B up to D (1.5 steps)

3) Understand that D minor is the RELATIVE minor of B major. So to play a D minor scale, use ALL THE SAME NOTES as a B major scale, but start and end on D instead of B. Voila!

If you have access to a piano and are familiar with how a keyboard is laid out, these things become clearer easier, because keyboards are so visual in a way that steel guitars are not.

Hope this helps.
Best,
Jimbeaux

Fellow Forumite, Mike Perlowin, wrote a book on theory. Here is a link:

CLICK HERE

Lee

I don't know that this pertains to your question, but I've got a handy split between the B->C# pedal and my Bb lever, giving an easy IVm.
Works for me.

This has been said already, but just a different way to think about it wording wise..for steel especially in my opinion its best to think of your scales in terms of the major scale.

A minor is the relative minor of C major.

In other words the A minor contains the same notes as C major.It can be thought of as playing the C major scale from the 6th note A

Since C major has no sharps or flats A minor also has no sharps or flats.

If someone tells me a song is in e minor I have to figure out which major scale has E as its 6th note. Its G, so the song can be thought of as being in G maj.

So I know I can play the song anchored on the 3rd fret.


If you lay out the step progression of a major scale in 2 octaves,,you can see the whole half step issue for the minor as well

1 w 2 w 3h4 w 5 w 6 w 7h1 w 2 w 3h4 w 5 w 6 w 7h1

C___D___E_F___G___A___B_C___D___E_F___G___A___B_C

so this is c major AND a minor,,just start on the 6th note for a minor

so by learning the major scale steps you have a template for your minors and other modes.


By knowing that a natural minor scale is simply the major scale starting from the 6th note you can play in any key and quickly find what fret on the steel your anchor point is.

WOW !!!! Awsome! That's alot of great info and everybody helped. I really can't thank you guys enough. Steve that 6th note deal should spring me foward in the learning process. I do thank you.
Well then, looks like I might be away for a bit to learn the majors and minors solidly before I get confused again...but I'll be bock.
Thanks Again,
Joel...over and out(for now).

Joel
The scale you show is a mode of the C major scale. This A minor scale is the VI minor of Cmaj. The E9 pedal steel is by design tuned to play the major scale and the modes there of. All the modes of Cmaj can be played in the up and down C pedal positions on the steel using the pedals as though you were playing in the key of C. That includes all them hot licks you play in Cmaj. For the scale of Amin, just start and end on the A note or 6th of the C maj scale. For the scale of Dmin Just start and end on the D note or the 2nd of the C maj scale and etc.

Joel, the easiest way to see this is on a keyboard. Find a C, just play the white keys. That is a C Major scale. Now go to A, 6 notes up. Play from A to the next A, that is an A minor scale. A is the 6th note in the key of C major.

Black keys are needed because all of the notes are not the same distance from one another. All the white keys are whole steps apart, except E to F, and B to C. To keep the same relationship between scale tones for all scales except C, you need to use at least 1 black key. Learning to read music is helpful, recognizing key signatures is the "key" to knowing which black keys to use. For example, key of G has an F# in the key signature. Start on G, play all the white keys except F, play F#. There is your G Major scale. Now start on B, the 6th of G, Play to the next B- B minor. Hope this helps, JP

If you take the notes of the A minor scale, you get
A B C D E F G

They're the same notes as the C major scale,
C D E F G A B

By using those same notes, but starting the scale on a different note you get 7 Modes. The minor and major scales are two of the modes. The Ancient Greeks gave each of these modes names. In modern western music most of the other modes are rarely encountered.

By the way, the blues scale in Eb is all the black notes on the keyboard. Tune your guitar down a semitone and play the blues in E shapes and you'll make the piano player a happy man.

Alan Brookes wrote:The minor and major scales are two of the modes... In modern western music most of the other modes are rarely encountered.

Well surely the Dorian (a different minor scale) and the Mixolydian ('dominant' scale) are very widely used in modern western music, as in 2m - 5(7)- 1 and all that. But you knew that, Alan, right?

Well it's all slowly starting to make sense. I need to practice, practice, and more practice. It's kind of alot of info in a couple days but I'm still truck'n. I'll play scales then read some advice then practice some more, read a second remark think I've got it, then I'll forget half of the first then come back read again then forget part of the second...you get it .
Thanks Guys,
Joel

learning the interval shapes in the major scale is the rosetta stone,,the whole step half step thing,,

just about every thing confusing in introductory theory can be linked to misunderstanding it.

you need it for chord construction, chord progression,,scale type, improvising etc..

I actually carry a little chart in my paca seat of the major scale in all 12 keys.

if I have to construct a chord,,figure out what key I am in,,what the 3 chord of the key F# etc...I ust have to look.


Making these kinds of charts etch away at the confusion since it turns the abstract concept of theory into something visual.

Good luck

Jim Cohen wrote:...Well surely the Dorian (a different minor scale) and the Mixolydian ('dominant' scale) are very widely used in modern western music, as in 2m - 5(7)- 1 and all that. But you knew that, Alan, right?

Yes, I thought of listing the names of all the modes, but for someone who doesn't know the notes of a minor scale I didn't want to get him into overload.
As you probably know, I build and record mediaeval instruments, so I've been very much into Early Music for many years.

Alan Brookes wrote: Yes, I thought of listing the names of all the modes, but for someone who doesn't know the notes of a minor scale I didn't want to get him into overload.
As you probably know, I build and record mediaeval instruments, so I've been very much into Early Music for many years.

Yes, I knew that (and I agree there's no point naming all the others right now), but I was surprised to see you post that the others are 'rarely encountered' in western music! You coulda said, 'there are others but I'm not gonna tell you about them until you've got this one under your belt.'

The Grim Reaper wrote:...Gotcha !

a duplicate, unremovable post.

Jim Cohen wrote:...but I was surprised to see you post that the others are 'rarely encountered' in western music! You coulda said, 'there are others but I'm not gonna tell you about them until you've got this one under your belt.'

Yes Jim, you're right. I just looked at the post and figured I wasn't dealing with a professor of music.