The Steel Guitar Forum

I'm wondering why there's not more interest in 12 string E9th? Particularly from steel players who come from a standard guitar background.
Seems to me, having down to a guitar "E" is a great plus for rythyms and scale riffs, etc...

Well, to tell the truth, you can have that 'E' if you want it, all you have to do is raise that 10th string B up to the 9th string slot, & pull it to C# on the A pedal and raise it to D on a lever, put an low E string on the bottom & your ready to rock & roll. All my S-10's are hooked up this way.
Then you don't really need a 12 stringer.

Ernie

Check out Winnie Winston's Pedal Steel Guitar book to see what Buddy Emmons was using as a 12 string 'extended' E 9th (really the same as an E 13th, which is what I use in a 10 string version.

Emmons 12 string:(l-h) E B D E F# G# B C# E G# F# Eb

my E 13th 10 str:(l-h) E B D E F# G# B C# E G#

pedals A,B,C are the same. Knees lower E's, raise E's, lower G's, lower B's and raise C# to D and lowering the low E to D on RKR.

Use Buddy's if you want to keep the chromatics. Otherwise, try my 10 string version.

Thanx,
Jim

Michael Dulin wrote:I'm wondering why there's not more interest in 12 string E9th?

I think that people are scared by too many strings. It never bothered me, though. I've been playing Extended E9th for 30 years!

I have a friend who was ordering a new GFI from Bobby Seymore and only wanted a 10 string so he asked me about a good setup as he played in a band which did a lot of rock so I made up a copedant for him which had the E B E on the bottom so he'd be able to get some of those "power chords". I had him lower his 8th string to D though instead of raising the 9th B to D.

On my personal steel though, I really do "need" a 12 sring as I use that 11th string G# a whole bunch for some fat sounding chord work.........JH in Va.

Two things happened when I played a 12, either the Carter or the Fessy that I had.

One, some musicians I played with thought the low notes got in the way.

Two, I got into C6 big time! Speaking of low notes.

Three, I'm fickle when it comes to guitar. Only my red D-10 has lasted

Michael,I have a Dekley SD-12 3+4 set up in my living room as my practice guitar,it took a little while to get used to it,I would take it to gigs but I don't have a case for it...It's very cool.

Jerry, thats the same thing as I just mentioned above, but I like raising the 9th B to D, because of using it just like E9th standard when you need it. There are some speed picking things I do with that D on the 9th that cannot be done by lowering the 8th down to a D.
I had a Kline universal one time that I had to move that change to the 8th lower because of breaking that little 'wire' oblong piece that was soldered to the pull rod, just kept breaking that. I missed that change & enventully went to another brand just to get it back!!

Ernie

As much an I enjoy the 12th string E, the 11th string G# is the one that I miss the most when I sit down at a 10 string E9th. I use it a lot as the lowest note of a harmonized line, or at the beginning or end of single note run. If I didn't have it, I'd have to at least lower the B to A.

Before I got my first 12 string, I played a D69 tuning. I had a pedal that lowered the 10th string A to G. That was a decent range for a 10 string guitar, I think.

I have been playing d-12 for years. I have no problems with it.

I don't have a 12-string yet but, when I do, it'll have an E and a G# for strings 11 and 12. That's what excites me about the project, especially that G#, which will be a real boon.

So - I'm not a 12-string player yet, but I am 'in my head' ( - I've been mentally preparing for months); b0b's post above caught my eye, and I agree with him and his thinking about that G#.

Anything lower than the E would, I think, be muddy and of little use on the bandstand - we musn't encroach on the bass-players' territory!

actully, it's what I play, but don't encourage people to try it. I don't want the prices to go up on used s-12s.

I have played 10 string for so many years, I just couldn't get used to the 12 strings.
On a 10 string neck, I could just lay my hand on the strings and my grips would be right there, not so with 12 strings.
I decided to give up and spend the time on C6th.

I played a 10 string for 30 years and switched to a 12 String Universal, and currently a 12 string Ext. E9th with the G# on the 11th and the low E on the 12th. I never had any problem switching from a 10 string to a 12. We don't have a lead guitar in our band except on special occasions, just a fiddle and steel. I do an awfully lot of stuff on the extra two strings to cover for the lack of a lead guitar. I can do the Folsom Prison vamp just great and a lot of rhythm stuff for 50's rock and roll. I don't know why the 12 string E-9th is not the standard. A 10 string just seems like it is incomplete and missing two low strings to me.

It took me awhile not to accidently hit the 9th string D when I switched over to a D-12, but now I wonder how I ever played without those low notes on E9 for 30 years.

BTW, my good friend Jim Palenscar recently came up with a genius "reverse split" to help me utilize my "zero" pedal to the max. This pedal is to the left of the usual pedal A. It lowers the 12th stg. (E to C#) and raises the 9th (D to D#) making a gorgeous C#m11.

My "F" lever also raises all three E's to F.

What Jim did was to create a way to disengage the low E-F raise whenever it is played in conjunction with the zero pedal lower. This makes a brilliant C# dom 7 (and C# Maj. when played with pedal A)

Thanks Jim!!!! I haven't been this excited about E9 in years.

As is shown by the variety of responses, there is NO set standard or rule a person needs to follow to play a steel guitar, whether, pedal or non-pedal. The 'rules' or guidelines have been developed by all of us wanting to know how to get "that sound" or the chords that 'so and so' played on a certain recording or show. There have been 'volumes' of rhetoric written in the Forum on all of this, and EVERYONE is correct in their own special approach to how they play.

For me I like to be able to use full ten string strums any time I feel like it and do not like the E9th with the 'wasted' (for me) chromatic strings, which keep me from the full chord strums I get with my E 13th.

My advice is always to experiment with whatever tunings you want to try and be patient. You could find a good one that most of us may have never thought of. If so, please share it with us - I may like to try it out.

Thanx,
Jim

Rick

That sounds terrific! I'm still assembling my 'perfect' set-up for the 12-string for when I finally commit to it (probably this Summer), but that zero-pedal sounds a fine idea. Right now (on my D10) I have the Isaacs change on pedal 4 (adjacent to my 'Day' A pedal - P3), but there's no reason why I can't put the Isaacs change on my first pedal, and adopt your pull for my pedal 5.

The more I figure out, the more convinced I am that I have to buy a completely-new guitar for this venture - trying to fit my set-up - which is getting more complex by the day - on an existing steel would be a tall order....

Thanks for your post!

Roger...it's funny, but I was thinking of you when I was writing....especially since I've been working on my own take of "Jesus Loves Me" using that change. (not that I could ever try to live up to Mike Smith's great rendition)

Thanks, Rick.

Yes - Mike's playing on that track still tantalises me to this day. Funnily enough, I can get closer to it on my E9, using the 9th string, 9th string-lower, along with my (Day) A and B pedals than I can on C6. Not all of it, but the general nuance of it.

To be honest, it has been that progress that has encouraged me to think in terms of changing from my D-10 to a fully-exploited Extended E9; my grasp of E9 is just that much more tangible than are my C6th capabilities. My private opinion is that E9 is a tuning more adaptable to modern 'changes' than C6 - it only lacks the low range in its ten-string configuration.

Would you consider e-mailing me your set-up? I'm sure there'd be some food-for-thought there for me. I'm already very excited at the potential of that E to C# lower on 12!!!!!

Yep I've got an Emmons PP D12 8+6...While my G2 was being built I played it exclusively...I think Im going to go pull it out of the closet...NOW!...I certainly love having the low E and G#...

Roger....check your email. I'm hoping you still have your past hotmail account cuz I couldn't figure out how to send an attachment through the forum mail option. Let me know.

Here's a poll I'd like to do in regards to the XE9 tuning.

Q.1) Do you play the 12 string Extended E9 tuning?

If no: go to the bar.

If yes then:

Q.2) Does your "2nd" ped. pull str.11 along with 3 & 6; and does your E>F lever pull str.12 with 4 & 8?

(yes or no)

Q.3) Does your tuning have any extra s#!t on it beyond the basic 3 pedals and 4 or 5 knee levers?

If no: go to the bar and get that other guy a drink...

If Yes:

Q.4) How many of those extra pedal/lever changes are the same as changes which are on a standard Uni? Which ones?

for extra credit:

Q.5) Tell us what other pedal/lever changes you have:

Let the fun begin.

Q1. I love the extended E 9. Here are the more unusual changes in my set up, in reaction to John’s queries.

Q2. Yes, I pull all 3 G#s up to A. That way, the low A on the 11th string provides a root for the pedals-down formation.

Q3. 2 extra pedals: To the left of the A pedal, a pedal that lowers the top 2 G#s to G. Use this in combination with the A pedal to make, for example in open position, an Em6 or a funky A7.

To the right of pedal C, a pedal that lowers 5 and 6 a whole tone. I use this by itself or in combination with the E-to-D# lever, as a different way to get a V chord.

I also--on an additional 2nd RKR--bring 1 and 2 up so they are the same notes as 3 and 4. (I am not brave enough to use this very much . . . but I’m gonna!)

I think the extended E9 is a wonderful tuning.

Chris

For John Groover:
Q1 = yes, ZumSteel S12extE9
Q2 = 2nd ped G#-A on 3, 6 & 11 - E's-F only on 4 & 8
Q3 = yes, 7pedals and 7knee levers
Q4 = P4, partial P5, P7 and partial RKL from the E9/B6Uni
Q5 =
LKL(rear) = 4&8 E's-F
LKL(front) = 6 G#-G
LKV = 4 E-F#
LKR = 4&8 E's-Eb
P1 = 5&10 B-C#
P2 = 3, 6 & 11 G#-A
P3 = 4 E-F#, 5 B-C#, 12 E-F#
P4 = 1 F#-F, 7F#-F, 12 E-C#
P5 = 6&11 G#-A#
P6 = 5 B-C#, 6 G#-A#
P7 = 5 B-Bb
RKL 2 D#-D-C#, 9 D-C#
RKR(front) = 1&7 F#-G#
RKR(rear) = 8 E-F#

To get the most out of my setup requires both feet on the pedals but that is fine with me.

Bengt Erlandsen