The Steel Guitar Forum

Not sure if this is the right forum for this discussion or not.

I know musicians/friends that know every single note on the freeboard, string by string. They know diminished, 6ths, 7ths, 9ths, and whatever all that means. I haven’t a clue what they are talking about and usually just say, "play the dang chord or riff and stop talking that jibberish." I almost always dive right in to any task or challenge using just enough info to get me started, so it's not just that way with instruments. So I'm curious, am I the norm lap steeler or guitar player when it comes to theory or technical music knowledge like that?

Same goes for the lap steel/dobro that I've been playing for about 4 years now, but I didn't get any instruction on how to lap steel, other than how to tune it, which I found online. After about a year of playing it I started playing with friends and now local bands. The more people I play with the better I get and feel I can play with most any one now. Not saying I'm all that, but I feel I can blend easily into most any song. Out of all the instruments I play, I feel the lap steel is the most suited for person that plays by ear because to me the slide is a by the ear or feeling kind of instrument.

Now for some comments that may start a debate and get me slapped around?......I know about 5 or 6 theory/technical musicians and they can get so wrapped up on the technical aspect of playing that making music with them ends up being no fun. I've heard stuff like, "you can't roll into this diminished coming from a 9th" (don't quote me that to a T). I find those conversations painful and usually say, "I don't know what this is, but it sounds dang good to me. The root not is this and figure out the technical piece if you want". I'd guess these type musicians find it painful to play with me too. I'm sure I'm gonna get slapped for saying this, but I've found these type of technical musicians seem to have no 'soul' when it comes to making music. The songs they write rarely sound original or have and 'heart & soul'. It almost reminds me of an artist who paints by number, verses just picking up the brush and painting what’s in your mind. Don't slap me to hard if your one of these technical guys, I only knew about 5 or 6 technical guys and that’s what I've found with all of them, thus my stereo typing.

I just wondered... am I the norm when it comes to learning musical instruments and particularly the lap steel? Where to do you fall into this mix?

I am mainly an ear player but find that learning theory only helps my abilities. The more I learn about theory the better my ears get.

Right now I'm working on alt chords on the lap steel. It makes it more easy to find what I'm hearing in my head on the neck.

As far as being a tasteful musician goes knowing or not knowing theory won't change much. Its like talking without anything to say. You can speak with a large or small vocabulary and you will still have nothing to say.

Several truths that I hold to be....true:

---there is no substitute for an good ear

---good ears may be a little bit born but they most certainly are made

---all instruments are the same as to how they take to applied knowledge (well, ocarina & jew's harp.....maybe)

---lack of learning (theory) should be no obstacle to playing music

---learning should be no obstacle to playing music

---there is no such thing as too much learning---all knowledge gained is knowledge gained

---if learning (theory) interferes with music it is a reflection on the musician, not on learning (theory) (although there is such thing as bad education----the kind of music school, for instance, that prepares a musician to play in a show band but does not nurture him to, like, play music.)

I don't know that there is any such thing as 'the norm' but there certainly is a lot of opinion on your subject. But I repeat the last item---if someone finds that eduction interferes with music, it is not the knowledge that's the problem--it's the understanding and application of it. But the lack of this training should not disqualify a musician from playing music----there are so many many brilliant artists who never learned the formal stuff. To reject it, though----it always bothers me when I see that. Knowledge is knowledge, knowledge is good.
I am only semi literate on steel (and I was a fully reading keyboard player many years ago) and it kills me when someone tells me to play a B note and I have to think about it, on the particular string I'm at.

I agree with what Bob and Jon said. I started out playing totally by ear and then when I had some time and motivation (and got tired of other guys having music conversations that I wanted to join in on but were going over my head) filled in a lot of theory gaps. You'll never go wrong by learning as much as you can about music and your instrument...and when you want to pass on to bandmembers what you have in mind on a new tune, you'll have a common language. If you ever want to take the theory plunge, I can recommend a book/CD by Jack Hatfield called "How to Play By Ear" www.hatfieldmusic.com
It's a real good player's guide to music theory and won't bog you down with a lot of "heavy" topics...it's completely non-instrument specific and will give you real good general knowledge on keys, scales, chord construction, how to anticipate the next chord (and why) etc. It's helped me a lot in figuring out tunes from CD's.

I agree guys that any amount of notation or theory knowledge can only help. I'm mostly a "play be ear" guy, but many tunes, such as Hawaiian numbers, I have to look up the notation or tab to get the correct solo.

I was playing with a new group a week ago, and the head honcho said, "I like the way George plays all around the melody when he takes his break". BUT, was he really telling me he likes my ad lib playing or was he saying, "George, play the melody please". I smiled but didn't respond. I made a better attempt later to play the melody!!!!

Even to be able to read tab is a big help if you don't know notation.

As most of you know, I'm an old geizer and play mostly in the old tunings A Major and E/E7 major, both are "open sturmmable tunings". In A Major for example, you can ONLY get ONE full chord 7th and that is A 7th, buy tilting the bar on the first string on the third fret. All other 7ths are only two note chords. For example in the Key of D on the 5th fret, you can get a D7th by playing the first two strings on the 8th fret, and the 2nd & 3rd string on the 3rd fret. And one more D7th you can get is playing a reverse slant with the first string on the 2nd fret and the third string on the 3rd fret.

Minors are usually a combination of two notes only.

E Major tuning has a similar but not exact pattern, but of course, E7th you can bar up and down and all are 7ths.

Remember that when your picking a tune, and you're required to play a minor, diminished, augmented etc chord, you usually only have to play a couple of notes in that chord and the accompanient will be playing the correct full chord, but you don't have to play the full chord.

Geo

The key to everything in the world is balance. I am one of those guys who used to be so stuck on the theoretical aspect of music that I couldn't play. I found that the cure for that is to sight read and anylise as much music as you can. I'm at a point now where I can, given the key and context, not only

blend in

but I can also tell someone else how to do so. I'm getting to the point where I can even call out things like C7 instead of Em7b5 for players of a more rudimentry skill level. I think we all need the whole ball of wax to whatever degree we can develop it.

Don't you think that the most important part of theory is knowing what the notes sound like?

My experience has taught me that the bare minimum requirements to get up on the bandstand and play music with others and be taken seriously are 1. A good set of ears, 2. Good timing, 3. Having listened in profound depth to the kind of music you are attempting to play, 4. A basic working knowledge on your chosen instrument of scale tones,chord forms and the so-called Nashville number system so you can communicate with others about music and song forms, 5. Enough technique to execute your musical ideas cleanly,in time and in tune.

And if you can't get that together you could always get yourself one of these: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bexIdm0awwo

A lot of good points and conversation here. Jeff, I'll look into the the jack hatfield CD you mention, it sounds right up my alley. I agree that more knowledge and theory would only help further more skill. The problem I've always had is that if I have 2 hours to spend, I'm going to spend that whole 2 hours playing my lapsteel, or another instrument. I guess I have yet to find instruction that doesn't bore me and thats the problem. Maybe I should get some audio books so that I could make the most use of my time on the road (I spend a good bit of time in bumper to bumper Atlanta traffice). I was almost to the point of giving up forever on theory, but you guys have nudged me to keep trying.

Chord hat.. Now thats funny!

The most important thing my instructor taught me was to know where the chords are, whatever key you're playing. Know where the I is, the IV, the V, in triads - 1st, 2nd, 3rd string; 1st & 2nd string pairs, 1st & 3rd string pairs, etc. i.e., know that G is the twelfth fret, strings 1-3; xxx4x5, xxx789, etc. Or, put another way, know where the I pairs/chords are with G on the first string, with G on the 2nd string, and with G on the third string. Same thing with the IV and the V.

Of course, it helps to stick with one tuning - although I know players (most notably Martin Simpson on acoustic steel string guitar) who can go back and forth between tunings with ease. Or course, Martin Simpson says he can do it because he worked on it for years.

If you can play with SOUL, you can add the theory to open up even more "soul" to your playing. The way you play the notes (the correct ones!) is where the soul is. I always figured that getting too theoretical can somehow detract from what's in your heart when you play from the soul, but adding to your knowledge of theory can only help if you maintain your attitude of putting you heart into it.

Learning theory won't mess with your soulfulness. Over time it will sharpen your recognition and understanding of the music that's coming at you, whether from outside or inside. And when the Nashville Numbering System that Mike Johnstone mentioned is a common language, it's a lot easier to communicate with your fellow players. Hang in there with it until the terms are no longer obstacles, but start making sense-- when that happens, then bit by bit the theory will start to be useful.

Whatever theory I know has really helped. I honestly couldn't tell you where "ear" stops and "theory" starts-- I listen with both.

I have always admired my fellow musicians who know more theory than I do.

With a few exceptions, my experience has been that those who are very knowledgeable on theory are also damn good musicians.

The norm? Don't know, but certainly there are plenty of accomplished musicians in both camps.

I think it was Elvis Presley who said, "I don't read music, in my line you don't have to."

Michael, that Chord Hat would really come in handy at my local jams.

When I was in college years ago I was told by a professor that students learn in different ways. Some absorb information better when they hear it and some absorb information better when they read it. I don't know if this translates to music but I don't see why it wouldn't. That would explain why some musicians are better at learning by reading music and others by hering.

I think I fall into the "by ear" group because at one time I was able to read music and studied theory but most of what I play is learned by ear and I no longer can read a chart. It was painful for me to learn and I just never kept up with it. That said I think it's a good thing to at least learn basic theory which does not involve reading music.

been playing stringed instruments for over 40 years and enjoy them and the music I make.....have no problem sitting in with a group of my retired buds and playing all genre of music......I cannot read a lick of music, although I have 2 college degress...so I aint no dummy..... but, for my enjoyment and the fun of playing with so many others and giving lessons to many others over the years....I dont think i have done too bad....
I do enjoy reading all the "technical jargon" on SGF on music theory...chords...tabs....ETC........and I do learn lots of new stuff............only, when I sit down to play.....only my ears..fingers...heart and soul are making the sounds.....
jmho ...from another old geezer.....
carroll

Someone asked Chet Atkins once if he could read music, and he said (paraphrasing here)" Yes, but not enough to hurt my playing."

Funny enough on the surface, but what he was saying is that the type of music most of us play (i.e., improvised) benefits most from using our imagination and our ears. If it sounds good, it is.

Pat Metheny says there are NO wrong notes -- just poorly placed ones. Seems like a "yeah, well no duh!" statement, when you realize that he's talking about phrasing (your delivery). How you play a phrase, an the timing you use to play it, will determine more in what works than in what note choices you make based upon a certain chord. If it weren't the case, then Charlie Parker was a hack, and we know otherwise.



And that's something theory can't teach. It's like being a stand up comic. Same joke, two comics. One gets laughs, the other doesn't. Why?

Timing and delivery

I have a degree in music, and I use just enough theory (generally in the form of intervalic relationships as mentioned above) to help me navigate and know where my chord shapes are, but not enough to hurt my playing.