The Steel Guitar Forum

Has anyone had trouble with UPS damaging a steel and case in shipment and ""acknowledged they were at fault"" and denial the payment of the Ins.that was on it? nobody from UPS will talk to me. Had claim put in my name so i could take care of it.They drop a Pro 2 damage it and case in shipment!They refuse to talk to me, am getting ready to take them to small claims court. Any input that may help when i go to court?? would like to get a list of claims that were turn in against them if there a way,some forum members said there`s been problems in the past??
thanks Frank. / (Hope this is in proper section of forum to post this)

The shipper buys the insurance and needs to file the claim... at which time it was explained to me that it's not really insurance, but a perceived value program.
Go into a UPS store and they ask you.. Do you want to insure that?? Very sore subject for me.
Ken Metcalf

As noted. the shipper has to file the claim - they are the only ones with a contract with UPS. The receiving party can either send the item back to the shipper or have UPS inspect it, but no, they won't talk to you, because it's not your claim. If it's not being processed, blame whoever you bought it from - any claims I've filed (all two of them in hundreds of shipments) have been processed and paid within 2 weeks.

The shipper has one form to fill out and has to talk to one initial person and then someone who calls THEM and verifies that the claimant's address and such are correct for reimbursement processing. It's not complicated, but I HAVE had problems when on the receiving end - all because the shipper wasn't doing his job.

The claim was turn over to me by the shipper faxing a written statement to turn over the claim into my name which they did, at UPS Corp. Headq. in Alanta the claim is now in my name. All am saying is I TRUSTED AND PAID UPS(I KNOW THE SHIPPER DID THIS BUT IT WAS MY MONEY) TO ""BOX AND PACK THE STEEL AND INSURE IT"" AND DELIEVER IT TO ME IN A PROFESSIONAL MANNER. My computer show that UPS said that THEY DAMAGE IT IN SHIPMENT, is how they worded it.The shipper said when he left the store the steel was still sitting on the scales to be packed. I`ve talk to quit of few people who will not use UPS then THERE those who have a account with them for there shipping needs. I know i`ll never use them again/ The reason for UPS for not paying the claim is because the shipper lost his reciept for paying for everything, but there was a reciept on the handle of the steel when i got it And they STILL WILL NOT TALK TO ME!!
We`ll see what the court says!/ It took one heck of a drop to bust the steel loose from inside the case let alone crushing the case/5 months this has been going on

Frank, it's a roll of the dice.The UPS store can't or won't pack a amp or guitar as it should be.And many sellers don't bother. The last 2 I bought came to me packed like this.

If you are not double wrapping your items with heavy duty bubble wrap and putting them in an industrial carton you can expect damage.

What Kevin said.

And never have a UPS store pack anything. Regardless of insurance, a shipper should know how to pack correctly. There is enough information on this forum about it to choke a horse.

The reason for UPS for not paying the claim is because the shipper lost his reciept for paying for everything,

Like I said at the start - the shipper initiates the claim. They can't "turn over" the claim to you, because you didn't pay for the shipping directly. You have no contract with UPS. Title to the item doesn't transfer to you until you receive it, and the damage occurred prior to transfer. IF someone in a UPS store says the claim was transferred that means zero - they are independent franchises not owned by UPS - most of them don't know laws vary state to state. Go ask a clerk about transfer of title and note the blank stare......

You need to dump this whole thing back on the seller - anyone dumb enough to leave an unpacked item and then lose the receipt needs to take care of business - like refund 100% of your money (including shipping BOTH ways) and wade through any shipper hassles themselves.

I have to ask - WHY would you let the seller make it YOUR problem?

The fault with this whole transaction...assuming we're being told a relatively straight story - lies with the seller, and nobody else.

It took one heck of a drop to bust the steel loose from inside the case let alone crushing the case/5 months this has been going on

As I said - 8' from the conveyor to the floor.

Frank, I understand your frustration - and no, I don't work for ANY shipper, and have used just about all of them - but you didn't pay UPS to do anything. You paid a SELLER to do something. Th CLAIM may have been transferred to you, but that doesn't alleviate the need for a copy of the original RECEIPT (the shipping label is NOT a receipt- a receipt shows method of payment, by whom, transaction number etc).

Again - I'm just totally baffled why you let the seller - who left an unpacked item somewhere and the LOST the receipt - off the hook.

Good luck collecting. If you take them to small claims you'll need proof of purchase from THEM by YOU, at least in most jurisdictions. It would be a total waste of your time. If you take anyone to court, it should be the SELLER!

I am reading this and wondering the same thing that Jim is, why is the shipping party passing this one to you ?

You paid the SELLER, he packed and shipped it, in the first order HE owes you the refund and in the 2nd order he should collect HIS insurance from UPS.

I sure hope this gets resolved to your satisfaction.

We see these UPS murdered my Steel threads every so often. Hopefully we can learn from these threads.

#1, All shippers can damage or loose an item

#2, PACK it yourself, why would you let some 17 year old kid or middle aged Foreign lady pack your $5000 D10 Steel or $1000 amp ? They are not professional packers. I am..

#3 For items of hi insurance value, UPS has a preship inspection document which should he signed by the person accepting the package. This document will END all claim arguments.

#4 When making a deal regarding shipping (to you)
let it be written and clear in the sale terms that if the item arrives damaged that you get your cash back from the seller and THEY file the insurance claim. This should be #1.

#5 If you are involved in a shipping transaction where the Insurance is real high, a few thousand or more, that is a RED FLAG to UPS or any other carrier. You had better have your ducks lined up. They are NOT going to just accept somebody's word that all was well when it was packed and shipped.


Keep in mind as I stated in another thread, all of these hi $$$ claim issues started with a shipping scam, people would ship DAMAGED items and claim UPS damaged them in shipping and file a huge claim.

Steel Guitars and Amps weigh a ton, shipping these items is NOT a common practice for the typical run of the mill person, they need to be packed like they WILL make a 5 foot fall.

I make UPS drops all the time at the UPS stores, I am amazed at the items I see sitting there waiting to be professionally packed by a 17 year old with a bag of peanuts.

3 items I have received that were trashed.None were the fault of the actual shipping but rather the packing.

Broken neck off of a Guitar ( Post Office) The box was 1/2 full of peanuts, no guitar case.

Peavey Nashville 400 in a flimsy box 1/2 filled with peanuts!

Tascam 80-8, same thing just sitting in 1/2 box of peanuts.

Now how is it possible that blame can be assigned to the actual SHIPPING of these items for the damage ?

Thats what UPS and the other shippers are talking about.

Pack it properly then ship it FedEx. UPS has damaged and/or lost more stuff on me than you can imagine. Since the great labor dispute in the late 90's, they flat out don't care. That's when FedEx Ground started nipping at their heels. Guess it worked. They've done fine.
PRR

Thanks for all Replys about UPS.The Guitar was pack Per My Instructions, inside and out.It was pack as it should of been<thats not the issue for they clearly acknowiedge they were responable for the damage, it was the reciept that is the problem. I can under stand anyone loseing anything,as i have. Were all human,same goes for ups personnal.But that doens`t make it right for them not to produce there reciept of the transaction! two wrong don`t make it right!! There are ups stores that do packing and there are ups franchisee that pack,i understand that also.Either way its the number 1 company in its field. Therefor i paid for there expertise(Which the dictionary definition of expertise is (Specialized Knowledge or Skill)in this case "PACKING AND HANDLEING AND SHIPPING". Accidents happen to us all,all i ask for is the same thing anyone else would to be treated fairly the people ive deal with since this happen has been VERY UNPROFESSIONAL AND TO SAY THE LEAST VERY RUDE, (not all but atleast 90%
of them.)

Frank, I'll repeat this - *YOU* didn't pay UPS for anything - the shipper did. *HE* has the contract with them.

But that doens`t make it right for them not to produce there reciept of the transaction!

If you return an item at a store you need a receipt in almost all cases. The store's bar-code/price tag is NOT a receipt. With very few exceptions, stores will not get you a copy of a receipt of your purpose. The same issue exists here - I understand they acknowledge the damage, but they STILL need the customer's receipt as normal policy. The "two wrongs" phrase makes no sense here - the issue is that the seller is the one responsible and who has a contract with UPS - you don't have squat, unless there's some legal document absolving the shipper (who purchased the services) of all involvement...which makes NO sense. I still do not comprehend why you would make it YOUR problem!

However, if you directed him to just leave it at a UPS store and have it packed and shipped, I think that was a mistake.

Also - if it was packed properly, what was damaged? I'm curious because the only non-packing-related problems (other than the rare lost package) are boxes either crushed or pierced. Knowing what happened might help others.

Frank, help us out here. Are they saying YES we damaged it but you don't have the receipt ?

I am still not certain why the original shipper passed this on to you. Was this a situation where you made a purchase and the seller shipped it to you and now it is damaged ? I think a few of us are still unclear.

I find myself reading and responding but am not really certain anymore as to what I am responding to.

thanks

tp

Hey Tony
Yes to your first two question.The reason the original shipper passed it on to me, is they(UPS) would not do anything for him from the start when he filed the claim because he lost his orig. reciept that showed were he paid UPS to box and pack and ship it to me.That when I ask the shipper to flax UPS and turn the claim over to me. Yes i purchase a Pro 2 the seller did ship it threw UPS and was damage in shipment.
Hope this answer your quesions, Tony,Thanks for trying to help.
Thanks Frank
The only thing i got was the shipping tag that was attached to handle, it shows who ship it(shipper)and the UPS store were it was ship from , my name address ect. what was being ship(steelguitar), and insurance amount that was on it

Ken Metcalf wrote:The shipper buys the insurance and needs to file the claim... at which time it was explained to me that it's not really insurance, but a perceived value program.
Go into a UPS store and they ask you.. Do you want to insure that?? Very sore subject for me.
Ken Metcalf

THIS is a real problem, and just a flat out scam. Someone needs to sue them into oblivion, class action type of thing.....paging Jonny Cochrane or that cat with the cowboy hat and frindged jacket.

Frank, doesn't the seller remember where he brought it to be packed and shipped ? They will have records.

The UPS tracking number identifies where the intitial scan was, I don't understand what the sellers problem is. UPS knows exactly where it was originally picked up. That store has records of packing and payment.

I'm back to this , it is the sellers issue and he should give you a full refund like NOW. He is insured, not you. If he lost the receipt thats HIS problem not yours.

UPS has every right to request the receipt , it validates ownership.

And the above note is incorrect, you insure , you pay for insurance, you show a receipt of VALUE and you get paid on the claim. I've never heard of this perceived value thing. I have been shipping UPS almost exclusively for 5 years with an account and the very few times I filed a claim they paid based on what the insurance was and my RECEIPT or INVOICE. They also refund the shipping amount paid. At one point when I was shipping thru Office Depot, they were the shipping agent, they got paid from UPS and they gave me CASH. Never an issue.


I sure hope you get this resolved soon , I hate this for you.

tp

Tony..it was on the news recently, one of those "tell us your problems and channel 5 wil get to the bottom of it!" thingys...apparently the "insurance" they sell ...isnt insurance any more.

They had some poor hi-fi stereo collector on there with receipts and invoices and "insurance"..and of course UPS denying what they sold him was "insurance".

dont know if something has changed since you dealt with them last...but there appears to be a real nasty bit of wordplay and legalease and super fine print wranglin goin on now.

Well, Ben - then the "insurance" changed in the last two weeks, because I just had a claim paid on a damaged item that I shipped. The buyer got it with damage, called UPS - and THEY contacted ME, and let me know how (even though I already know) to file a claim...which I did, was called twice more to let me know processing status, I had the item back a week later and a check a few days after that.

I've never heard about "perceived value" until now either.

One thing to keep in mind is that the actual shipper (UPS, FedEx, DHL, etc.) is NOT responsible for ANYTHING until they actually take legal possession of the item. When using an intermediary such these Mailbox places, beware. They make take possession of the item at their counter, and technically they are then responsible for its safety. When UPS or other carrier then takes possession of the item from the intermediary, THEN and only then is the carrier responsible. If damage occurs to the item while it's in the possession of the intermediary, the carrier cannot be held legally responsible for anything at all. This was told to me by a guy in Southern Pines NC who, along with his wife, actually owned a Mailboxes R Us-type franchise there. He was the one who shed the light on this subject and recommended I not ship any guitars or the like thru him, but rather ship directly at the UPS or FedEx depot. I then discovered that when insuring for more than $1000.00, the UPS counter attendants insisted that I open the parcel for their scrutiny and inspection before they would accept it for shipping. That meant me taking my supplies to the depot and having an employee stand there looking over my shoulder to make sure I did it right. That was the last time I ever used UPS. The alternative, of course, was to not insure the item for more than $1000.00. Yeah, right!!! I certainly wasn't about to totally un-pack everything that I'd just spent a couple hours packing very safely. The primary reason UPS is so touchy about this is that the company is a self-insurer and any and all claims are paid directly out of their profits. This is also the reason they fight off claims as vigorously as they can. This was told to me by a supervisor of the Southern Pines NC depot (UPS) and it was then that he suggested I ship via FedEx Ground. I've been doing that ever since and the service has been fine.
PRR

In shipping probably 500-1000 packages with UPS in the last 5 years...some insured for thousands of dollars...not once have I been asked to open the box for inspection, and I drop mine off at 3 different UPS stores and 4 different UPS counters, depending on where I am.

I HAVE seen customers asked to open boxes for inspection - but they were obviously using used boxes and the taping was sloppy or nonexistent. I use new boxes or used ones in excellent condition, and do a neat and thorough taping job. It looks professional, and I want buyers to know I didn't just toss something together.

Maybe the counter people look at the outside and then decide if they need to inspect; maybe it's random and I've been lucky.

But I'll say it again - pack for a 6-8' drop (I've seen the openings in the conveyor...there are places a box can fall through), don't leave exposed handles, and if you have a damage claim handle YOUR part quickly and courteously. I've shipped countless items, had two claims, and both were paid in 2 weeks with no argument, no hassle...no problems at all. Oh - and I didn't even have to give them the damaged item...they let me keep both, which ended up salvageable!

Well, the last INSURED claim I filed was in January of this year.

here's what I did:

I filed a claim stating that the box arrived damaged upon delivery and the contents were destroyed.

here's what they did;

sent me back a claim form to fill out requesting details and COST statement, this took maybe 24 hours.

I filled out the form and FAXED it back, told them they could go inspect the box if they wanted. Value approx $100, Insurance $100.

here's what they did:

Sent me a check for my value of the contents and the shipping cost. This took perhaps 10 days at best.

This has been my normal claim experience with UPS over the past 5 or 6 years...maybe 3 or 4 claims per year, 300+ shipments per year.

My UPS experience is very much like Jim's, I use two or three drop locations around town based on where I am that day. I do all of my UPS labels on line with our business account. Anyone can open a web account, it's not restricted to businesses, and its free.

I find the UPS folks pretty nice in the scheme of things, the folks at the two HUBS I go to are always very nice and very helpful.

By the way, just a heads up, the topic if this thread is still open, yes UPS did damage the item but there are other issues related to claim ownership which may be going on behind the scenes. Frank is following thru with UPS regarding claim ownership which is not real clear at this point. Once that is determined I feel Frank will be ok and on the right course .

Tony, you beat me to it.

I was just logging on to post about that subject. I think the "transfer of title" is screwed up, and that can cause problems at UPS - the need to know who actually is responsible for receiving reimbursement. The lack of a receipt further clouds things, since the shipper is the ONLY party who has a contract with UPS.

I had one claim on an incoming shipment - an amp that was damaged. It was also damage acknowledged by UPS (although I felt it wasn't their fault - it was a terrible packing job, and the amp had been modified with speakers screwed...not bolted...to the baffle, which broke loose, tore the cones and nuked every tube.). Still UPS said they'd pay the claim, but when the seller tried to have the claim transferred to me UPS refused, saying he paid,he need to do the claim forms. In other words, they would not LET me take responsibility for filing the claim (which I wanted to do, not trusting the seller).

That's why Im still not too clear on what's going on here...and maybe UPS isn't either. I've never heard of a claim being handled at the buyer end except for an inspection of the damage.

Glad you guys are getting your "insurance" claims processed and handled without hassle. Just relating what i saw on the news and what Ken's post gvae creedance to....but if thats not the case...so be it. Thankfully, i havent had to personally file a claim with them for years..so I am going on heresay and not personal experience in this matter. Doing a quick google search on "ups insurance perceived value" brings up only this site and this thread...so I'm inclined to beleive its not the problem I was led to beleive it was by my local news crew's crack investigative team Best of luck to the OP in getting this straightened out.

Yeah, Ben, I did the same search and found nothing..and I was very curious because I DO use UPS for 90% of my shipping.

And to Frank - I think I can probably speak for Tony here as well in saying that we're not trying to be hard on you; it's just that some of the circumstances don't seem to make sense, like "transferring a claim" to the receiving party, or the seller not being able to obtain SOME record of the purchase.

I hope it all works out.

Stay away from UPS if at all possible. Go with DHL. They are a lot cheaper, and WAY safer. They handle your stuff much easier, because they are trying to win customers over from the other two shippers. I have used DHL exculsively for the last two years. Flawlessly. If you use UPS or FEDEX, then you are asking for trouble.

Jim, would there be any value to me in this scenario? Say I ship my guitar to Ricky for a rebuild, and I also send him a UPS shipping form filled out by me for the return shipping, and ask him to use that form and pay cash for the shipping, so there's no record of him being involved. Ie: his credit card.