The Steel Guitar Forum

Just a general enquiry in relation to sustain and as to what kind of things can `prevent` a good sustain especially in the higher register....12th fret and above .

I hear other players on youtube and other vid.clips, going way past the 15th fret and have sustain that just rings on , while others seem to " run out of steam" anywhere past the 12th fret.

I`d like to know why and what can effect this particular part of our beloved instrumnent...it doesn`t appear to be "brand specific"..seems to me that almost any make or model is affected to some degree.
Could it be the strings?
The bar ?
The pick-up?
The pick-up height ?
Can amp. settings have an effect ?

there has to be some logical explanation as to why brand X rings all the way up the fretboard while brand Y almost cuts out past a certain point !!

All opinions and such gratefully accepted....especially if there is some good `knowledge` included.

And all Manufacturers feel free to respond also

Glyn -

NO ONE KNOWS. That's gospel. There will be a hundred uneducated guesses - just conjecture - since there is no known published studies of the elements which contribute to "tone" and "sustain" in the pedal steel guitar. It's therefore prudent to take any suggestion that purports to claim that such-and-such is a major contributor to the sonic qualities of the instrument with a giant grain of salt. The physics of the instrument are much too complicated and interactive to allow a cursory examination and then make grandiose proclamations as to the contributions of its' constituant elements. Tread lightly, and wisely, when considering this subject.

Richard

I agree, no one knows for sure. Not all guitars are the same

I have some things that work for me.
Fresh nickel strings with stainless bar.
Pickup at reasonable height. about 2 quarter-dollar coins. plus or minus.
Reverb adds to the sustain I hear.

With volume pedal at about 1/2, I have the pre-amp gain high as possible without distortion. Then I use the VP to keep the sound constant. I let the power amp be as loud or soft as needed for the room.

hope this adds something
R2

When Yall finally figger it out, let me know too

It's the player mainly. A good player will figure out how to get what he wants out of most any guitar whether it's a S-10, 3 & 4 or D-10, 10 & 10. Doesn't matter. Sustain is different for everybody, I believe. For me personally, it's the right hand, a good steel amp and a good strong pick up. Other pickers will have there own things as well.

Like you said, it doesn't seem to be brand specific. I think that hints that it's the player more than anything else. I can name 10 top pros that play 10 different guitars, and they all have great sustain and tone. Lots of players think you can just buy a guitar of a certain brand...and you've got "it". If that were true, there'd be a lot more players sounding like Buddy and Lloyd. Proper bar control, proper picking technique, proper use of the volume pedal, and proper setting of the amp, all play a part in the equation.

While it's true that some guitars have more natural "sustain" than others, rarely does one come along that won't get the job done - if you're a good player.

If you want some secrets, e-mail me.

I think that the fit and tolerances of every part in the string path is important. Slop anywhere is a tone and sustain killer!
The keyhead must fit well, and be held tightly to the body.
Tuners should fit well.
Roller nuts should not be sloppy/wobbly on the axle or in the slots.
Changer fingers should fit the same way as the roller nuts.
The changer axle, pillow blocks, and base should all fit tightly together.
The changer base should fit well and be held tightly to the body.
Excessive "slop" anywhere in this path will lessen the length of time a string vibrates. Once you start movin' up the neck with your bar, the keyhead parts play less of a role, but they're still an anchoring point of the strings to the body.
And, of course, just like acoustic and electric guitars, the body also plays a role in how long strings continue to vibrate. I have four Shobuds from different design eras. The one with the best tone and sustain is the 59 Permanent. It does not have nut rollers. The body is quite unlike modern guitars. It's long and very gracefully slim. The front apron is narrow, and the back apron is almost non-existent! The body is light and resonant.
A good pickup that sense string vibrations well. Talk to Rick A. about that.

I usually don't get involved in these threads, ..

edited to keep it that way

Well,I'll word it like this.I know which guitar appeared to sustain the best above the 12 fret when my favorite players played them.

Billy Carr is exactly Right.
If A guitar will not sustain up above,
Get a better one.But usally it is the player.
Bill

It's the player mainly.

Sorry, I disagree, and so does most of the luthiery industry.

The player matters *least* when it comes to sustain. It's a function of the physics of the instrument. Right hand has zero to do with it (except for the obvious "variable" that is irrelevant to testing, which is strength of attack. Sustain testing is all based on equal starting vibration energy) and bar pressure on as far as "too loose" would cause buzzing and loss of vibration.

Sustain has been studied to great lengths (and expense) in the 6-string world, and the following are *some* of the findings:

1. As stated, the player isn't part of the equation
2. Pickup height is critical, and there's a significant relation ship between height and magnet strength - the more pull, the further the pickup needs to be from the strings, but there's a "sweet spot" - if you get TOO far you lose:
3. Input signal strength. Has to be strong enough to drive the electronics that follow.
4. Construction. There are two theories, both considered correct and diametrically opposed in approach:
A. The platform much be rock-solid to allow strings too vibrate with no lost energy through platform vibration; if string energy is lost through the platform picking it up, vibration of the string drops off rapidly.
B. The platform must vibrate sympathetically to the strings. This is the "acoustic theory" science thought - the right combination of parts (wood, especially) will vibrate sympathetically with the strings and create a "chain" of vibration feedback, if you will, increasing the time period of the vibration. It's dependent on a ton of factors in construction and is what most guitar makers base their construction methods on, and includes everything from body construction to the weight of tuners.
5. Kind of a subset of "A." above, elimination of moving parts. Simple examples - bar-type bridges have far better sustain than roller-types made of similar materials with similar mass; the same would be true of nuts.
6. Amplification (if any - obviously only applies to electric or mic'd instruments) - very complicated, but basically it comes down to transparent, controlled feedback - the sound coming out of the amp continues to activate string vibration at certain harmonic levels.

This is a very simplified version of some of the major factors, so no flames, please. I'm just trying to present some of the proven factors luthiers have discovered and massaged over time. Obviously, many of these things affect the tone of the instrument as well, another area the player is a small part of (with attack - angle, strength, and distance from bridge) being the only player-dependent factors (and that only slightly manipulate the natural tone of an instrument).

Moving the bar back and forth helps sustain, Hello Jeff Newman, he says in a course i have.

ernie

From the online encyclopedia:
"Sustain is a parameter of musical sound in time. As its name implies, it denotes the period of time during which the sound is sustained before it becomes inaudible.
Explanation
Instruments with the shortest sustain are usually drums; a drum beat begins to fade almost instantly. Instruments with the highest possible sustain often involve the passage of air, such as brass or the pipe organ, which have theoretically unlimited sustain. Resonating instruments such as the piano and guitar also have fairly long sustain for string instruments.
Factors affecting sustain
Within a family of instruments, sustain is affected by a variety of factors. For example, sustain in guitars is determined by factors including body construction (hollow versus solid), body woods, the placing of strings (through the body or atop the body), and pickup design. "

Glyn's original post was actually two questions in one. He mentions the great sustain above the 12 fret he hears for some players. This could be as simple as using a humbucker pickup, picking hard, using the proper weight bar and proper bar pressure, proper vibrato, and (maybe most important) working the volume pedal optimally. None of those things concern the brand or construction of the guitar.

But then he goes on to wonder about different brands, and even different guitars of the same brand and model. All that stuff Jim Sliff mentions then comes into play.

So that's two different questions. Both affect sustain. So it is futile to argue one against the other.

Get someone else to play your guitar and you will see that it's the player that makes the difference ...

Best way to get maximum sustain is simply rub viagra
on your guitar strings then sit back and watch the magic happen. However there are some side effects to this.

" However there are some side effects to this."
Should read:" However there are some slide effects to this."

IMHO; The pick-up a variable, no two will be alike, and I have found there are some frequences various pick-ups although, the same manufactor and same k winding, will not react the same a the same frequence. I have changed strings and the same results are still there. Electrical parts just are not the same a known fact.
If you can change the pick-up and change nothing else that will solve that question.
Just what I have experienced.

A.J.
I tried your method ....It worked out but I did have strange side effects ....The keys fell off and now it's keyless, but the scale grew from 24 1/4 to 25 1/2 inches ... ...More sustain for sure ...I also see an increase in string pressure , but I'm keeping my eye on it !!...My pedals steel has also been known to play for more than 3 hrs at a time ... My doctor just says to give it a longer rest next time !!.....Jim

Get someone else to play your guitar and you will see that it's the player that makes the difference ...

No you won't.

You'll hear a different vibrato, or a different pick attack.

Bar pressure also has nothing to do with it, unless it's too loose and causes the string to lose vibration.

It ALL has to do with maintaining vibration of the string. That IS sustain. With all due respect to the late Jeff Newman, moving the bar doesn't make the string vibrate longer. A heavier/more dense bar might - but NOT vibrato (in fact vibrato can actually cause LOSS of sustain to a small degree by decreasing energy through change of wavelength).

It's either 1) mass and stability between the two points of string contact that reduce vibration (energy) loss, or 2) sympathetic feedback from the amplification system. Those are the two very different factors that make up the basic "sustain" platform (whether in electric or acoustic instruments). The minute you add a pickup you alter the equation, as the magnets pull on the strings and slow the vibration - that's the variable.

I think a lot of people should read Guitar Player magazine - yes, it's a 6-string mag nowadays, but they actually publish fairly scientific information on subjects like this periodically, or print references to technical publications. The Guild of American Luthiers is another good source.

Or take a physics class. It's pretty basic stuff regarding waveforms, mass and energy. It's amazing how many misconceptions there still are on this subject; one that has been studied and published ad nauseum.

There are differences between steels that change how they sound and sustain. But the point is moot if you don't have physical control of your sound. For example a Fender Stringmaster, short scale lap steel has very little sustain. If a person that has trained there hands plays it it has plenty.

Look at it like a violin. There are differences between a Stradivarius and a Yamaha. But if a person with "no chops" plays them there will be very little difference between them.

This is the main problem I have with posts that use 6 string guitar as a reference. To get good tone and sustain out of a pedal steel is a very different thing than getting a sound from a guitar. I fully understand the posts about luthiers and guitars. The problem with posts that relate standard guitar to the pedal steel fall into the "If the only tool you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail" catagory. The information they convey is incomplete and therefore misleading.

I really have to agree with Jim on this one ...I can take my grip and apply it to a few different pedal steels , all with the same stings on it , and the same age of strings ...There are SO many variables that would apply when talking sustain, tone, or any other facit of pedal steel playing ... All these variables are what makes one steel sound diffent from another .... Sustain is just ONE of the variables ...Materials, Mass, density, construction, placement , string height , pickup strength etc all play a part in the sustain of an instruement ....I could go on and on .... It's not just one thing that anybody can say makes a pedal steel sustain longer than another ...Jim

The information they convey is incomplete and therefore misleading.

Sigh. Another example of someone in the steel world who thinks the laws of physics don't apply, and that steel...a guitar...is somehow different in how the laws of physics apply to vibration and energy to it than a 6-string...or 12 string...or one string.

Bob, it's all the same. It's all string vibration, energy, mass, magnetics, etc.

Guys, pedal steel is NOT unique - it's a guitar with a bunch of mechanical stuff attached. Lap and console steels are the same without the mechanics. the bar is the only difference...which might as well be a fret with a finger or capo holding a string to it or a glass slide.

The same physics apply to steel as any other instrument. Hell, I did a college term paper on sustain, pitch change, and such relating to pedal steel (using a borrowed one...I didn't even play the instrument then) in college - the class was "The Acoustical Foundations of Music" and was as much a science as music class.

There's a text by the same name (or close to it), and it sure as heck looks like a lot of you need to read it - especially if you believe 6-string physics aren't related to steel physics.

You might as well believe ice only melts in Fresno, because you're from Fresno and have seen it.

I agree completely Jim! One thing that hasn't been mentioned a lot in this thread are strings. If you haven't changed your strings in a year, you're not gonna have good sustain. When I was out giggn' 5/6 nights a week with my Kline, loss of sustain in the high register was a sure sign my strings needed changing. After all, sustain is the length of time a string vibrates. Dead strings don't vibrate anywhere near as long as new ones.