Lawrence Pickup Differences

Chris Johnson · From: USA

Hey forumites,

There are a variety of Lawrence pickups that have been made over the years, ie 705,710,905,910,XR-16 etc. I've always either played with George L's or single coils.

What are the sonic differences between them?
(thin,thick,hot,grainy,smooth,trebly,bassy,string separation,etc)

Which do u prefer and why?

Thanks

Bill Miller · From: Gaspe, Quebec, Canada

Well I have both a 910 and an XR-16 and the difference between those two is bite. In my Carter the 910 was rich and very musical and I loved it for sitting at home playing along with CDs. Onstage it seemed to have trouble cutting through the mix to be heard clearly. The XR-16 has some extra high end bite and while it's sweet sounding it can cut through the onstage fog.

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

My Franklin came with 705's. I put 710's on about 8 years ago. The difference is the 710's have more "separtion" or clarity, otherwise the tone is the same with both pickups - my Franklin still sounds like a Franklin with the 710's.

I tried a used George L's E66 one time, to see what it sounded like and it was mostly lows - not the clean highs that the Lawrence 705/710 have.

Billy Murdoch · From: Glasgow, Scotland, U.K.

Jack,
Do You know the difference in impedence between the BL 705 and the BL 710?
I have been informed that the 705 is 19.5Kohms
Thanks
Billy

Don Poland · From: Hanover, PA.

Billy, I have a BL705 sitting here on my desk that Ohm's out at 18.5K using a cheap radio shack multimeter.

The ones in my MSA also measure approx 18.5K give or take .1K

Hope that helps.

John Fabian · From: Mesquite, Texas USA * R.I.P.

Billy,

The DC resistance (not the same as AC Impedance) for 710's is over 30K Ohms. The construction differences do not allow meaningful comparisons using Ohms. Ohms can be used to make a relative comparison if the construction is the same. Bill winds his pickups using AC component measurements. Specifically Henry's.

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

John is correct, any two Lawrence pickups will sound identical but the DC ohms may be different since he doesn't use the DC resistance of the coil wire as a parameter.

I talked to Bill - better I listened to Bill talk about pickups and when he found out I was an electronics tech he really went over my head with his dissertation.

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I have spent periods of time at guitar or NAMM shows talking with Bill about pickup design. He truly is a treasure, IMO.

I have to say that, to my tastes, the Lawrence 705 is my favorite sounding pedal steel pickup, bar none. People talk about growl - they have it, to me. It's that characteristic in the upper midrange that I love. When I hit a double stop or a 3-note triad, that pickup just sings. I have an XR-16 on my Legrande E9 and I'm about to put in a 912 in my Zum U12. The XR-16 has an extended high-frequency response, to my ears. Sounds good on the Legrande. I'm swapping out a very good-sounding Truetone on the Zum - we'll see.

Bill designs based on complex impedance, not resistance. Most pickup manufacturers use a large iron or magnetic load in their pickups, which lowers and broadens the resonance peak in the frequency response and makes the pickup more muddy. Think of a Gibson Humbucker or P-90. With a pickup like this, more windings means a lower and broader peak - more mud. That's why you can talk about a relationship between the overall sound of the pickup and the number of windings.

Lawrence uses "air coils" in some of his pickups - no iron or magnetic load. When you add windings, it doesn't lower and flatten out that frequency response anywhere near as much. There is the effect of increased capacitance from more windings. Anyway, he can have pickups wound to 18K, 26K (like my 912) or even 30K or more and still not have it turn to mud.

I'm not saying I know the technical details of his steel pickups - but his general approach is to make more of a medium-impedance pickup. The resistance is fairly high, as compared to a traditional design, but the complex impedance is not.

Billy Murdoch · From: Glasgow, Scotland, U.K.

Thank you Gentlemen for Your very informative replys,I appreciate your taking the time to share Your knowlebge.
This Forum certainly is a wonderful place.
Best regards
Billy

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

Doug Jones · From: Oregon & Florida

To my ear the L-710 has the best string seperation for recording purposes. I have opted, however to use the older L-605s in my studio guitar. The 605 is thinner than the 705 or rarer 805s. The tonality spread seems more balanced to me with my 605s. The 710 has great highs and high mids, but to me the lows are too big, soft and warm. For stage work, ye olde single coil still gets me more worked up than humbuckers. -DJ-

Olli Haavisto · From: Jarvenpaa,Finland

The 12 string models seem to be a bit longer.
_________________
Olli Haavisto
Finland

Chris Johnson · From: USA

Thanks for the replies,

Ok. Am i right to assume that the higher the first # is (6,7,8,9), the thicker or bassier (if thats a word Laughing

) the sound is?

John Fabian · From: Mesquite, Texas USA * R.I.P.

The first number of the x05 series indicated different impedances and resistances running from lowest to the highest. lower numbers tend to be brighter while higher numbers tend to be mellower.

705 - approximately 18K-21K Ohms, 15H inductance
805 - approximately 26K Ohms, 21H inductance
605 - approximately 15K Ohms, 11H inductance
505 - approximately 12K Ohms, 7.5H inductance

This numbering system does not hold true for the modern Lawrence pickups (710, 716, 910, etc.) The first number indicates construction and the second two numbers indicate impedance in Henrys.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Interesting, John. I always assumed the second number referred to the number of strings - 910 for 10-string and 912 for 12-string, for example.

That numbering would indicate that the 710, 712, 910, and 912 are wound more like a 605 than a 705, for example. I guess I have to wonder if I can get a 916 for a 12-string, since I seem to like that extra upper-midrange.

John Fabian · From: Mesquite, Texas USA * R.I.P.

Sorry about that, Chief!!
Yes the 2nd 2 numbers do indicate 12 or 10 string but the also can indicate Henry's. 716's are the same for both 12 or 10 string.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

OK - that makes sense.

I realize this may not correspond exactly, but the 912 I just got has a resistance of about 26K, which would put it in the higher inductance range of the 605-805, if the basic design and winding method is similar. We'll see.

I'll say one thing - I have never heard a bad sounding Lawrence pickup, to my ears, either for 6-string or steel.

Scott Swartz · From: St. Louis, MO

I have R, L and Q measurements for a 910 (not 912, but still might be useful) and a 710 at home, I'll try to remember to post them tonight, also some others.
_________________
Scott Swartz
Steeltronics - Steel Guitar Pickups
www.steeltronics.com

John Fabian · From: Mesquite, Texas USA * R.I.P.

Construction and winding methodologies are totally different. the 912 is a "sidewinder design" where the coils lay on their sides on either side of the row of pole pieces. The x05 series uses 2 blades each surrounded by a coil.

The simplest explanation came from Bill (maybe the only simple explanation to ever come from Bill Smile

).

91x series were designed to make a bright sounding guitar mellower.

71x series were designed to make a mellow sounding guitar brighter.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Thanks, John. That helps. The times I talked to Bill, we were mostly talking about guitar pickup design - this is back before I took up PSG.

Paddy Long · From: Christchurch, New Zealand

John - how would you compare a 710 with a XR-16 with regard to 'brightness' or otherwise ??

ebb · From: nj

i have custom wound 405s for my whitney 12 string but i think for 10 string 705s were the bomb!

Scott Swartz · From: St. Louis, MO

here are the readings measured on an ESI 250 DA impedance bridge

Bill Lawrence 710

R = 26.4 KOhm
L = 13.4 H
Q = 2.8

Bill Lawrence 910

R = 29.4 KOhm
L = 17.8 H
Q = 2.8

Truetone 17.5

R = 17.3 KOhm
L = 17.7 H
Q = 4.3

George L E-66

R = 17.5 KOhm
L = 9.6 H
Q = 2.7

Seymour Duncan SSL-1 Vintage Staggered Stratocaster pickup

R = 6.7 KOhm
L = 2.7 H
Q = 2.5

I hope to get measurements on the 705 at some point, i think I have an avenue to make that happen. The 705 coil is certainly taller than the 710, etc and based on the readings I have seen I strongly suspect it is wound with larger wire, maybe its 42 awg and his current models are 43 or 44.
_________________
Scott Swartz
Steeltronics - Steel Guitar Pickups
www.steeltronics.com

Jerry Gleason · From: Eugene, Oregon, USA

I've had 710's and 910's in my Carter. Interestingly, my experience is the opposite of what most users report. In my guitar, the 710 is fatter and has more low end, and the 910 is thinner, but gives better string seperation. the 910 (sidewinder) works better for me on the C6th neck where it seems to have better definition, especially on the low end. It sounds a little more like a single coil. The 710 is killer on the E9, where it emphasizes the low mids, but still stays sparkely on the high end.

I can't say why my experience is contrary to the general consensus, but that's what works for me.

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