The Steel Guitar Forum

Anybody want to share their major 7th knowledge?

I'm not having much fun incorporating the voicings I've come up with into my playing.

Any input would help greatly.

Ryan, try playing E minor (EGB) at the 7th fret position on strings 2, 3 and 5. It can be thought of as a Non Root C major 7th chord. The bass player can play the root. If song is in the key of C major, go up to the 5 chord position and play the minor chord that is there. If were talking that the 5 chord is G, then it's 6th is E minor in the same position as that G at the 7th fret and gives us the 3rd, 5th and major 7th of a C major chord. You can imply alot of different chords with major, minor, diminished and augmented triads, kinda like slash chords. Pat Martino does this alot. Hope this helps.

P.S. Here's a chord generator that you can change to any tuning you want. You can see some additional voicings this way as well.
http://www.looknohands.com/chordhouse/archives/guitar_advanced/ns4_ie5/index_rb.html <font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 16 May 2006 at 02:23 PM.]</p></FONT>

Thanks Jesse. That's exactly what I needed.

The chord generator is invaluable.

http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum2/HTML/008405.html <font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Stephan Miller on 16 May 2006 at 03:57 PM.]</p></FONT>

You can get a [C Maj.7] by playing your C6 tuning open and tiping your tone~bar on the open (A)-str. at the 2nd. fret, for the Maj.7 (B)-note.

------------------
“Big John”
a.k.a. {Keoni Nui}
Current Equipment

For a (complete) Major Seventh (on C6th)

Example - F Maj 7th

Bar the C-string at fret 16 (M7th)
Bar the A-string at fret 15 (P5th)
Bar the G-string at fret 14 (M3rd)
Bar the E-string at fret 13 (Root)

If you're not strumming nor playing with four picks, omit the note on the A-string (perfect Fifth) and play the three remaining notes (Root, Major Third and Major Seventh)

~Russ

Of course, if you tune like Bobbe does:

E
C
A
G
E
C
A
F

You've got a big, beautiful FMaj7 on the bottom 4 strings.


------------------
Lee, from South Texas
Down On The Rio Grande

Mullen U-12, Excel 8-string Frypan, Evans FET-500, Fender Steel King

An Fmaj9 actually, all the way across.

The widest voiced major 7 on an 8 string C6th tuning with the third (E) on top, is found when playing strings 1 3 6 and 8. To form a major 7, 4 notes is required. Thus the reason it is called major then 7.(the need for a 4th note is needed for many other chords and voicings)

Should the bass player elect to leave off the root of the intended major 7 chord to increase musical tension (and they very often do) it eliminates the major 7 chord completely "unless" the steel player is playing all 4 notes required.

Leaving off that one note in which the 4th pick could have provided, allows the bass player to control the chord and leaves the steel player "out of control" relative to the chord and their musical intention.

Depending on the bass player to play the root works in some instances, but many bass players while creating musical tension, do not play the root note and may elect to play the 3rd in the bass which would then create a minor in place of the intended major 7th. As for me, this makes using the 4th pick a marvelous advantage and leaves me in much better control relative to chord selection.

Reece, I have some questions concerning what your saying. I'm also a bass player like many steel players seem to be and I know that my job is to hold down the bottom end, that means playing the root note when a chord first appears. This is the same for walking jazz lines as well as other kinds of music. Chord partials are a big part of guitar playing and work great, so why not for steel? Plus, I only work out on six string tunings and have to wonder about your statements in that context. What did all the great non pedal steal players do back in the day? Even with 8 strings, most of the stuff was done on the six highest strings. In looking at the over all chord grips available for six string C6, it's clear that alot of the most used voicings are partials? I admit that I have always been at odds with the Major 7th sound without a root when it comes to Hawaiian music, but decided I needed to get use to it on six strings. Since this was commonly done by famous steel players doing Hawaiian and country, I wonder if the steel player had to point this out to the bass player to make sure he played the bottom end when such a chord first appeared? The bass should not play a third when the chord first appears, but if the same chord lasts for two measures, then playing the 3rd on the one of the second measure is o.k. I would think? I think your well known on pedal steel, so I would be very interested to hear what you have to say concerning this issue. Thanks...

Hey Reece, it slipped my mind that you are also a big guru of the 12 string non pedal steel which I'm all for. Alot of us play 6 stringers and that is what I was talking about concerning that Major 7th voicing even though those voicings work no matter how many strings you have, o.k? But that Bass player, he stills has to take orders from the 6 string steel ya dig, LOL.

Jesse P....I appreciate your comments directed to me, and I'm delighted to respond.
First of all like many steel players, I've been playing bass most of my life.

In response to your comment about having to first play the root note of the chord....I have enountered many instances when not only was the root note not first played, it was not played at all. A few examples would be when a full bar was written showing 1/3 4/5 1/5 1/6 4/6 2/4# and etc.

Regarding your comment addressing my statement about a three note chord formed by a 6 string steel relative to the note being played by the bass.....were I to intend to play a 1 major 7, (while playing a 6 string 6th tuning) I would actually have to play a THREE note 3-. In reality that chord would remain a 3- only as long as the bass note was a 3. If however the bass player plays a root note, my 3- would then and only then, become a 1 major 7.

Were I to play a 6 string, an 8 string, or a 10 string for that matter, the abscence of strings would place me in what I perceive as a musical deficit while distorting, cloaking and inhibiting my musical intentions. In addition, my doing so would limit my creativity by restricting my ability to form the chord of my choice at anytime desired.

You are of course right that I truly believe in the vast musical possibilities of the 12 string non-pedal guitar. Here are a few of my reasons.

1. It places me in command of the chords I wish to play!

2. It provides me both the possibility and opportunity to play anything that has ever been played on a 6, 8 or 10 string non-pedal steel guitar because every note of a 6, 8 or 10 string guitar may be contained within the tuning if so desired!

3. It provides vast musical possibilities which would not otherwise present themselves when using less (notes) strings!

4. Additional chord locations become possible which provides closer proximity positioning, which in effect "shortens" the length of the fretboard while enhancing the opportunity of creating a smoother playing style/flow!

5. It provides many different voicings which are not available with less strings.

6. The added octave strings as well as additional notes, provides a far wider choice of chords.

Your later post again eludes to the question as to why it would not be possible to dictate all chords when playing a 6 string (and not using open strings) with a 6th tuning.

As further example....To my knowledge it would not be possible for a 6 string steel with the 6th tuning to dictate a 1 major 7 as being played, "unless" the bass player was made aware in advance of the intentions to play a 1 major 7. If the bass plays a 3, the steel would be playing a 3-, if the bass player plays a root, then on only then would the steel be playing a 1 major 7.

Addressing your final comment.....I respectfully suggest the 6 string steel guitar does not have the capacity to issue musical commands for every chord, which is attributed to the string limitation....many chords and voicings are dictated by the note being played by the bass.

Again may I thank you for providing me the opportunity to further take part in this discussion.

Reece-- I have no quarrel with your well-supported belief in the merits and potential of the 12-string non-pedal steel guitar, especially since having seen and heard you "make your case" musically with some terrific playing at the NYC C6 Workshop this past Feb.

However, if I understand what you mean by needing to "dictate" a maj7 chord-- in a band context-- by playing the root as well as the 3rd, 5th and 7th notes, this unquestionably can be done in a 6-string sixth tuning, with the forward slant that Russ Wever outlined above. His example was for C6 with the E on top. Another 6-string tuning where this slant exists is A6 with the E on top, where the same 4-note maj7 slant can be played by moving the bar one string closer to the player.

--Steve<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Stephan Miller on 18 May 2006 at 08:09 PM.]</p></FONT>

edited

Stephen M....Thank you for your comment and for attending my C6th workshop in New York City.

The inability to tune the 4 note F major 7 which Russ displayed renders that chord/bar manipulation objectionable to me, and I believe most others as well.

While it is possible to get three strings relatively close, (which is the 7th 5th and 3rd tones on strings 1, 2 and 3 when using the forward slant) those tones simply comprise an A minor which can be found at the 12th fret on strings 1, 2 and 3 with no bar slant at all. (when the E is on top)

Should one wish to experience the sound of an F major 7 which is in tune (again, with the E on top) play strings 1, 2 and 3, then place the bar on the 6th string first fret. When doing this the true beauty of the major 7 will emerge.

Imagine the advantage of making this same chord on every fret of the guitar and having it sound that beautiful, a 12 string guitar will do this for you.

The creation of any major 7 other than an F on a 6 string guitar is the responsibility of the bass, so the only choice one has, is to either inform the bass player, or grin and bear the consequences when the beautiful major 7 you intended to play becomes a minor.

Thanks again for attending the workshop last February and for your comments.

The other thing you can do is practice that difficult and long major 7th slant on the middle strings by starting on the lower string triad and sliding up to it's 7th, so that there is always 3 notes sounding, kinda making it more managable. You can also play a straight bar non root major 9th voicing that sounds pretty full or a full Major 6th chord that has all of it's notes in place of the major 7th. Early jazz guys used major 6th over major 7th in the early years. I like trying to work with the 6 strings limitations and try and find solutions, it prepares you for more strings and options in the future.

George P....I appreciate your asking me to further elaborate on this subject.

Before doing so may I again commend you for building such a great non-pedal guitar, and thank you allowing me to play one years ago at the Dallas steel guitar show.

A scale can be played "over" a chord, but for me it does not necessarily replace a chord nor diminish the importance of having the ability to form chords.

Chords are the foundation of music and single notes may be considered as "walls". The walls cannot stand without a foundation, yet they are part of the construction itself.

You are of course right that playing single notes contained in a specific chord (referred to as single string) is used extensively on all instruments.

Were one to use that approach exclusively on steel guitar, the player would be imposing restrictions similar to those of horn players who can only play one note at a time.

To me the overuse of single notes and the abscence of chords, although beautiful and impressive at times, uses only a fraction of the fantastic inherent characteristics which is the true "voice" of steel guitar and provides our instrument it's rightful place and own space in music, not only in the past, but today and into the future.

edited

Thank you George for your very kind words. It is also great to know you share my enthusiasm concerning moving the 12 string non pedal steel into the future while preserving and maintaining the magnificent past history of our beloved instrument.

I have been blessed to have lived long enough to both realize and experience things which did not change with the times, unfortunately most often they disappeared into obscurity. Were steel guitar to follow the path to obscurity, I would be devastated while realizing my life long commitment to something I love so much, would have been in vain.

I can only hope those who are enthusiastic about the future and love steel guitar, will join in a collective effort to not allow steel guitar to slowly fade and erode into the past. The 12 string has the attributes to accomplish our dream for the non pedal steel while moving forward into the music of the future.

Thank you again for your kind words.

Reece, could you please explain to me what you are referring to when you talk about the bass not playing the root note as in 1/3, 2/#4 etc? I don't know if your talking about slash chords or what? Thanks...<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 19 May 2006 at 04:22 PM.]</p></FONT>

Jesse P....Thank you for your question. I'll be glad to try to explain.

The 1 is always the root chord. In my example of 1/3, (most musicians who use the number scale would likely spell the chord as a one over a 3) were the key to be C, the 1 would indicate a C chord was to be played, and the 3 would mean the 3rd interval of the C scale which is E, and the note the bass would play.

Continuing in the same key, the 4/5 would mean the chord to be played would be an F, and the bass would play a G.

The example or 2/4# would indicate a D chord with the bass playing an F#.

When writting numbers (intervals) indicating chords, (and the desired bass notes) one is actually writting in every key at the same time because the intervals (distances) from all major chords to relative intervals remains consistent no matter which key is selected.

Thank you for your question.

It's not as hip as Reece's big tuning,
but this works for a small axe.

My little mini lap slide guitar is tuned

G____bVII___bV______bIII___bII______IV______I
E____V______bIII____I______bVII_____II______VI
C#___III____I_______VI_____V________MVII____bV
A____I______bVII____IV_____bIII_____V_______IV
F#___VI_____IV______II_____I________III_____II
D____IV_____bII_____VI_____bVI______I_______V
`
So.....A7....C#m7b5.....Em69.....F#m7b9.....Dmaj7... .....G
...A6/A7sus4.............................var. no 3rd

I hope dyslexically I didn't leave any mistakes....

I just needed something for a super short scale 6 string,
and this had a lot of possiblities for me.
I found it pretty darned versatil for 6 strings.

Since I put it on I haven't seen a need to change it.

I have a S-10 lapsteel in the SLOW process of being rebuilt.
It will likely get most of Reece's tuning on it.

<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 19 May 2006 at 09:41 PM.]</p></FONT>

Thanks Reece for your response. I see that your were indeed talking about slash chords, only in a Nashville chart kind of way.

So this brings me back to our discussion about the bass and 6 string C6 steel. When you saw a slash chord on a chart, that's a compositional device that is telling everyone what’s going on, the bass is being given directions not to play the root at first, right?

The fact is, almost all bass lines you'll ever see place the root note on the first beat of each chord and on the first beat of each measure even if the chord has not changed (excluding hard core walking). By playing the root on the first beat, the bassist strengthens that beat just enough to provide a recognizable rhythm, and also defines the chord changes. That's the standard and is what allows chord partials to work so well without having to tell the bass player what’s going on if he knows what’s up. There are songs that I'm aware of like the Beatles "Michelle" that has a bass line that is not playing roots at all in the first couple of chords in the intro, but the rest of the song plays roots. Also, in a band context, there are usually other instruments making that Major 7th chord as well. If the song calls for a major 7th, the bass player should hit that root on the first down beat of the measure or he's not holding down the bottom. I don't have a problem with a melodic line in the bass, but not at the expense of the bottom end not providing a recognizable rhythm and defining the chord changes. In my opinion, the bass player should not be playing slash chords on his own and messing things up. Tension has its place at the right time and in the right context, but that’s not for the bass to decide on his own when it concerns the first downbeat of a measure and or chord, that’s where we digress I guess. Thanks for getting me thinking…

Jesse....Sorry for any confusion, I had never heard the termonology "slash chords". You are of course correct in that when such chords are written, the chart provides the "musical roadmap" everyone is expected to follow.

You are also correct that when reading a chart, in most instances the root of the chord is first played on bass, especially when playing 4/4 time, which is what I believe you are referring too when you use the term "walking".

However much of that which I'm referring too happens when playing in 2/4 and 3/4 time signatures which happens very frequently.

I respectfully disagree with your comment that...."by playing the root on the first beat of the chord the bassist strengthens the beat itself". In my opinion even a wrong note played exactly in time would not detract from the strength of the rhythm section.

Most of what you are referencing is a musical circumstance in which everything is written. A large percentage of the engagements we all play has nothing written, therein lies the problem to which I have been eluding to from the beginning.

When the band does not have a chart, the bassist has discretionary "freedom" to add or take away tension by playing alternate notes, and the freedom to effect dynamics by (among other things) playing a walking bass and back to 2/4 anytime they wish.

As for me I must play an instrument which will allow me the necessary musical influence (enough strings) to control that which I wish to hear (while hoping the bass player will be listening to my intent and working with me) which again gets us back to my original comments in this thread.

I have played with many bass players on non reading engagements over my career who were unbelievable players, some are listeners for musical intentions of other members of the band, and others stay in their own world and exercise their "freedom" their way. I prefer a listener bassist who plays with the musical intent of being a team player while playing into the strengths of each individual player.

To say it another way, I and most musicians I know share the opinion that we would much prefer playing with a less proficient bassist who was a good listener and team player......than one who was a more proficient player but not a good listener who excercised their a "freedom" which was counterproductive to the collective efforts of the other musicians in the band.

In summation, it is my belief that indeed the bass note note DOES have the musical freedom to play whatever they wish when they wish when playing without music which could have a negative effect on the other musicians and the collective sound.

Included in that discretionary power is the freedom to omit or play slash chords and to control dynamics. Therein lies the problem, in that their personal discreation may be in opposition to the creative intensions of other band members.

The engagements which I, and most everyone I know enjoy playing when charts are not provided, is when everyone listens to the musical intent of everyone else, and the collective dynamics and chord tension awareness is created which then makes the engagement both enjoyable and a memorable experience.

As you stated, we can simply agree to disagree. Or ability to do so is a freedom we all enjoy. Having the forum to allow such exchanges such as this is hopefully enlightening not only to us, but others as well. You have explained your position respectfully and very well. You may be assured that was also my intentions.

Reece, your input and intentions are greatly respected on my end. I have been mostly referring to playing without charts as far as the bass is concerned in this thread. I note that you are avoiding the term "Bottom End".

I would never work with a bass player again; who was using his personal discretion concerning the use of slash chords, thinking it was a form of dynamics or artistic expression, which it is not. The reason so many of us play many different instruments is because the bass has restrictions that must be noted.

12 string steels don't fix a bass player who doesn't know how or why the bottom end is it's own art form and has it's own rules.

In looking thru the "Lost Art of Country Bass” none of the 4/4, 2/4 or 3/4 examples deviate from playing roots on the first beat of the chord.

Personal discretion is not wide open for the bass, hence the term "Bottom End". The reason I'm making this argument, is to clarify for 6 string steel players how to point this out to a bass player who is messing up their chord voicings. Telling them that they can fix the problem with more strings doesn't fix any thing.

Even if I was lucky enough to own a 12 string steel, I would still never work with any bass player who plays slash cords when ever he wants because he thinks he's playing with dynamics, that's just crappy bass playing.