Need 6 String Guitar & Effects Suggestions

steve takacs · Post by **steve takacs** » 20 Feb 2008 7:58 pm

I find myself in a postiion where I will be playing regular 6 string guitar (rhythm and lead) in a rock band and need to get a guitar that STAYS IN TUNE when the strings are being bent using a whammy bar and with lots of left hand bending. Of course, sound and playability are also important factors too. I'm looking for a variety of sounds from the pickups. Has anyone had experience with that Buzz Feiten tuning system or anything that keeps those strings tamed?

Lastly, what electronic pedals etc would be most essential to use for rock setup? I don't want to have to drag along and set up tons of extra stuff in a rack but would like a decent sound al la Robben Ford (Yes, I know his sound is due to more than an amp, guitar, and pedals...something called talent & soul!) Any suggestions would be real helpful. I am not a lead player but need to become one... QUICKLY. Thanks, steve t

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 20 Feb 2008 9:05 pm

I saw Ford play one night with the Yellow Jackets. All he used was a TS9 tube screamer.

In as much as a guitar that will stay in tune under all that wrenching rock abuse, I would go to you tube and look at some Joe Satriani videos. Whatever he plays...you would be pretty safe with that!

Ron Randall · Post by **Ron Randall** » 20 Feb 2008 9:44 pm

From My Texas Rock Roots:

1)Use the heaviest gauge strings you can get away with, then tune to Eb. Chuck Berry, SRV, and many lesser knowns did this. The big gauges give the pickups something to do. Many jazz players do this.

The Buzz feiten approach will put the guitar in tune from frets 0 to 5, especially. Use a Peterson StroboStomp tuner. It has offsets for Buzz Feiten, and sweeteners that really make a difference.

If you really use the whammy bar, you will often be out of tune, like every song. Heavier gauges will help here a bit.

For the over driven sound, I still think the Fender Blues Deluxe in "Drive" will give you that sound. Some tweaking of the input tubes helps the preamp to break up easier. It does no harm to the amp for it to be overdriven in the preamp. When it is all working right, the power amp does not have to be loud. You want the drive to happen in the preamp, not the power amp.

my 2c

The Blues Deluxe has a nice verb. You might want a delay unit.

Chris Buchanan · Post by **Chris Buchanan** » 21 Feb 2008 7:19 am

Hey Steve
Any guitar with a decent tremolo, like a Floyd Rose, and a locking nut should do the job. They're not as popular as they were 15 years ago, but they're out there. Jackson, Kramer, and Washburn come to mind.

For effects, you just need overdrive and chorus. I like the Ibanez Tube screamer. Boss makes good stuff too. Think about playing in stereo. It's amazing how much sound you get.

What kind of music are you playing? Will you be miked? Working with a soundman? These are important to know, because a soundman can do a lot for you already, since he (or she) already has effects. And the type of music will dictate the tools you'll need.

G Strout · Post by **G Strout** » 21 Feb 2008 7:53 am

Amp??
http://www.winfieldamps.com/
Truly the best of the "botique" amps I have owned.
No connection to them financial or friendship wise. They just make a killer amp!

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 21 Feb 2008 4:09 pm

Steve, really more info is needed. "Rock band" could mean almost anything. What *kind* of rock - then we can fine-tune the equipment. Suggestions like "you only need (fill in the blank)" are irrelevant - because for classic rock, one thing might work that would be ridiculous for progressive...or punk.

So - what kind of music, what venues (size, volume level, etc) , what OTHER instruments are in the band, are you miked/unmiked/both, when you say "lead guitar" does that mean there's another guitar as well (which makes a huge difference in effects), and as far as "whammy bar use - in *what* way? Dive bombing metal? Shimmery surf? More exact full-step up or down pulls? Each type of whammy does one thing well - but usually not others; and there are VERY precise things you can do with something like a stock Strat whammy to play in tune for SOME kinds of music.

Also, FWIW the Buzz Feiten system is a tuning system that 1) helps with some open chords and 2) supposedly does the same with closed positions, although I've never found it to be significant...and it has zero to do with a whammy bar. Except for the trusty old basic Bigsby's, whammy adjustment and setup is an art - it can take a couple of hours for a good tech to dial one in...and if you change string gages or even brands you start from scratch.

But that has the cart ahead of the horse again. If you can define things a bit more completely you'll get much more helpful responses.

ajm · Post by **ajm** » 22 Feb 2008 12:55 pm

What Jim Sliff said about the Feiten system is true. It has ZERO to do with keeping a guitar in tune, with or without a whammy.

As for the locking tuning stuff, I just don't get it. I have played various stock Strats over the last 35 years, have never had a guitar with a locking system or tuners, and have almost zero problems staying in tune. Playing with a whammy/vibrato is as much about technique as anything. Exhibit A: the first Van Halen album.

People who think that you can jump up and down on it and have it stay in tune all by itself shouldn't be messing with it. It is a technique/effect that you have to be into and willing to study, just like anything else. There are a couple of little techniques that will solve 90% of your problems. Lubing the nut, heavy strings, locking tuners and locking nuts/bridges may help, but you really don't need any of that if the guitar is set up properly and the guy standing behind it knows how to use the bar. As for locking systems, during the 80's I got the urge several times to go out and buy a guitar with one of those systems but never did. I'm glad now that I didn't.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 22 Feb 2008 1:37 pm

Robben Ford swears by his two Dumble Overdrive amps - I think they're running about $30,000 apiece these days, maybe greasing your nut's a better idea...

Michael Haselman · Post by **Michael Haselman** » 22 Feb 2008 2:22 pm

I have a Strat Plus which is a very nice compromise between the locking nuts, which take away sustain, and a straight Strat. Stays in tune excellently. I also use 11s, so heavier gauge than most.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 22 Feb 2008 6:22 pm

I don't like or use whammy bars, so I'm no expert, but I've been led to understand that Hipshot's whammy bar is the most reliable for keeping the guitar in tune.

http://www.hipshotproducts.com/index.htm

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 23 Feb 2008 7:54 am

I've never had a problem staying in tune with my Strat. Locking Sperzels. The tailpiece is set to only lower, not floating. Wrap virtually no string around the Sperzel string posts. Most important factor? I have an excellent luthier, who really knows how to form the strings slots in the nut! Lube those slots.
But for you? How about a Jeff Beck Strat? He's the master of the whammy bar!
Oh! And I have an Earvana nut on my Zion T-style. It works, and is easy to install, and quite inexpensive.

ajm · Post by **ajm** » 23 Feb 2008 8:48 am

Lots of good ideas here, but we haven't really answered his question. So, in an attempt to get back on track.......

1) Jim Sliff asked what kind of "rock" are you going to be doing? How many band members? How loud? etc etc etc

2) What gear do you have now? It sounds like the first thing you need is a guitar. Depending on what you have for an amp and pedals, you may not need to get anything else.

3) How much do you have to spend?

Any one of us could give you some suggestions right now, but until we know the answers to these questions we're just "flock shooting" so to speak.

Keith Cordell · Post by **Keith Cordell** » 25 Feb 2008 1:38 am

If the rock band is anything like the stuff you do normally, what's been covered should do ya. I might suggest an analog delay just to have it in the toolbox, but you have the amps already (THD) and a Tele with a humbucker in the neck or something alongthat line should cover it. I like using a notch filter to give me another flavor, but for utility gigs a good guitar and an amp usually will do it.

steve takacs · Post by **steve takacs** » 26 Feb 2008 6:54 am

Thanks to all you guys who have taken the time to post. It's helped me eliminate some things. For ex, I will forget the locking nuts, Buzz Feiten tuning system, and I won't be buying any Dumble amps very soon.

I'll answer the questions Jim, Chris, and ajm asked in the hope of clarfiying my needs. Our band play will play in small clubs in Beijing with anywhere from 50 to 150 people. With the odd exception these are not cavernous venues.

We will play COVERS of rock from the 1960s through the present and they WON'T be at ear piercing. For ex. Here are a few tunes we are working on: Green Onions, Money (the old R&B Barret Strong version) Not Fade Away, Start Me Up, Honkey Tonk Woman (Stones) Suffragette City; Rag Momma Rag (The Band) Sweet Child of Mine (Sheryl Crow version), Give Me One Reason (Tracy Chapman), Manic Depression, Purple Haze, Little Wing, Voodoo Child (Hendrix), Revelation, Talk to Your Daughter, Mama, Start it Up (Robben Ford), Fast as You, Intentional Heartache (Dwight Yoakam), Take Me To the River (Delbert McClinton) & Surf Music The list goes on ...

Drums, bass, piano, guitar, and 1 a rhythm guitar (only 10% of the time) make up our instrument mix. I also sing & play some slide on a Melobar. As for equipment, I have my trusty Nashville 400 and 112 amps, a Transtubefex, BOSS RV-3, a RAT distortion, & a wah wah pedal. For most gigs we'd go direct into the board and would rely on the soundman provided by the bar. I was looking at a Brian Moore guitar with a whammy bar but will try some Strats as mentioned by Michael H. and John. Any others worth considering in the $400-$800 range?

Will definitely look for locking sperzels and will have the string slots cut properly and lube them. I never considered these things and had no clue about the information Jim mentioned on the whammy bar. I always assumed you could raise and lower equally well. I am not looking to play wild pulls up or down with the bar.

I'd rather not go with a tube amp.... I prefer the ease of solid state. Is there any solid state amp that replicates, to a large degree, the tube amp sound? I assume the the Nashvilles would be just be too clean for rock. As for effects, overdrive and Tubescreamer were mentiond as was an analog delay. Can anyone vouch for teh Keeley mods? It there anything out there like a processor, that comes in one unit that might be a compromise between allowing for variety of rock sounds while not having a veritable Christmas tree lights set of stomp boxes? Do any of you use the Transtubefex for 6 string guitar?

Again, thanks, everyone, for helping arm me for this new type of playing. I'm studying hard but need the tools to make the sound worthwhile. steve t

Rainer Hackstaette · Post by **Rainer Hackstaette** » 26 Feb 2008 9:01 am

Hi Steve,

your arsenal of effect and amps should do the job nicely. I am not really familiar with the Transtubefex. If it doesn't have an overdrive effect for some crunchy rhythm, I'd use a TubeScreamer (the reissue model is quite okay) for that. You might want to consider a POD, which would give you all the effects and amp models you'd ever need - and you could use it for steel, also. I use the PODxt LIVE version for guitar work. The POD 2 is great for guitar, also, but not so hot for steel - not enough headroom.

I'd definately use a Strat, as it's the most versatile of the classic electric guitar models. Alternatively a Line6 Variax, which models 29 different guitars. Together with the LIVE version of a POD you'd have every imaginable sound at your toetips. The guitar models of the Variax and the amp models and effects of the POD LIVE can be stored together in the POD's memory banks.

The Strat alone would be quite sufficient, though, I believe.

Keep on rockin'
Rainer

steve takacs · Post by **steve takacs** » 5 Mar 2008 2:14 pm

Rainer, as always, your advice is appreciated. This summer I will try out some of these suggestions at our local music shop in Fargo, ND. Last night we had our fourth practice and I was stepping on and pulling out my lead and also knocking over my Boss RV-3 resting on a chair behing me. Besides guitar playing, I obviously need to work on my "Rock and Roll" onstage image. Been too used to sitting at a pedal steel too long, I guess. Thanks a lot partner, steve t

steve takacs · Post by **steve takacs** » 21 Mar 2008 1:50 pm

bump...

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 21 Mar 2008 2:07 pm

If you're playing covers, you'd probably like to have a guitar that can sound like the ones used on the recordings. With that in mind, I suggest the Line 6 Variax. They make one with a whammey bar.

They also make a version of the POD that interacts with the guitar, so that when you change patches on the guitar, the POD automatically also changes to the amp module that you select to match the guitar sound.

If I could only have one guitar, (and was not sentimentally attached to the guitar in which my father built and installed a B-string bender,) I'd choose the Variax. With it's 55 different built in sounds, it is far and away the most versatile guitar ever invented.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 22 Mar 2008 7:47 pm

I would go with what Bill Hatcher said
as the simplest closest solution for the dime.

You CAN have a Dumble clone, 220v D'Lite amp built,
I am doing one, 2 amps down the line
from my current build.

Not with the FULL eq switching.
But darned close to that smooth creamy sound.

Not as pricey as Howard gets..
he actually never charge $30,000,
more like $2,200, but the rarity
and chache are marking up resales.

The Satriani guitars are the best bet for this stuff,
I have a cheapo Fernandese with a locking nut whammy bar
and it's tuning seems to hold up well,
I got it because they wouldn't sell the gt synth
and not the guitar too.
I like it anyways.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 22 Mar 2008 10:23 pm

Based on the tunes you mention, I would go for a Strat (or maybe a Tele if you don't need vibrato) of a fairly classic design. Perhaps you might want to consider a coil-splitable humbucker in the rear position of a Strat or possibly a middle-pickup in a Tele to get 5 sounds. But for most of the music you're talking about, the basic 5 positions of a Strat ought to cover a lot of ground.

I'm with John B. - I wouldn't bother with locking nuts and such - just get a good luthier to set the nut up properly and keep it lubed.

I don't recommend "floating" a Strat vibrato - they're pretty touchy that way. I know one can do it, but do you really need to be able to pull the string sharp, and why? If you don't really need that, I don't recommend it. Myself, I adjust the vibrato spring tension a bit stronger than necessary to put the bridge completely flat on the body for the strings I'm using. This way, the vibrato is still reasonably liquid, but is very stable tuning-wise, and doesn't go crazy if I break a string.

Actually, I have an '80s American Standard Strat that is a very practical gigging axe - I see them in good shape routinely for $600-700. It's not as chimey as an old Strat, but still sounds good. Positions 2 and 4 (Front+Middle and Middle+Back) are linked humbucking - very useful in an electrically noisy room. The bridge is the newer 2-post bridge, which comes back to tune very well. The rear tone control is the TBX control, which works on the bridge pickup, and can tame the potentially ugly icepick high end of the Strat bridge pickup when pushing hard. As a purist, I probably prefer an old or vintage reissue Strat, but this is a very practical guitar that covers a lot of ground.

On amps - I often run my OLD version Pod 2 into the power amp IN of my NV 112. Sounds fine if one tweaks the Pod factory patches. I do NOT recommend newer versions of the Pod 2 - they changed the DSP chip in the last year or two. If you have to get a newer one, get the XT or newer. But for guitar, I prefer the older Pod 2. As a practical matter, I often use the Pod 2 this way instead of dragging any one of a number of good old tube amps out. I see old Pod 2's for fairly cheap - what, around $100-125 or so? But make sure you know what you're getting. The spring reverb on the new ones is perfectly awful, to my tastes.

BTW - I just got a Melobar Skreemr - it sounds fine into the Pod 2 using the Plexi Marshall setting with the treble adjusted down some. Would I rather run my THD Flexi 50 or an old Marshall? Sure. But I think this is just fine in a bar band mix for a few tunes.

I always have to play a bunch of guitars to find one that works for me. Plus, it's fun, right?

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 23 Mar 2008 9:14 am

Steve, for what you mentioned I'd get a Peavey solid state amp of some sort as they're workhorses. You need to have a clean sound with a lot of volume and a Peavey will do it for you.

As far as effects, don't rely on overdriving the amp as that's too "iffy" when you'll be playing multiple venues. I'd go for a Boss ME-50 Multiple Effects Board which will give you anything you want and all the effects are "tweaked" with a knob, just like a stompbox. You can program your own patches with ease. The distortion section has simulators for Ratt, Fuzz Face, Big Muff, Tube Screamer, etc. and you can program any one of them easily or just flip a switch on top of the unit to change from one to the other. It has a built in tuner, delay, compression, reverb, tremolo, wah, pitch shifter, chorus (stereo & mono), flanger, & a bunch of other good stuff. They go for around $299 at Guitar Center and are very durable. There's also an on board volume pedal which doubles as a wah.

If by some quirk of fate, your amp should go out you'd be able to just plug in the board with this unit and still have all your sounds!....JH in Va.

Jim Hankins · Post by **Jim Hankins** » 24 Mar 2008 12:17 pm

My experience has been that the standard strat vibrato holds up very well, better and with out the headaches of any locking system I have tried. I have had 2 strats and I could dive bomb or otherwise abuse the bar as much as I cared to and the guitars stayed pretty much in tune.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 24 Mar 2008 3:51 pm

staying in tune is more about the nut than anythig else...IMHO.

for your song list ..a strat would be ideal.
personally I dont like to use guitars with trems live, unless the trem is locked down somehow. with most trems if you break one string, the others go out of tune....and live thats a song killer especially with a locking nut trem like a floyd rose.

I'd avoid whammy bars all together if i was looking for a live stage guitar with zero tuning issues.

effects? whatever you want...distortion? overdrive? whatever sounds good to you.

I typically used a distortion (Boss DS2) a tuner (BossTU2) and a delay to cover my slop when soloing.
I hate those multi-effects things...they tend to do a hundred things poorly instead of one thing correctly. best of luck.

The Steel Guitar Forum

Need 6 String Guitar & Effects Suggestions

Need 6 String Guitar & Effects Suggestions

THANKS FOR SUGGESTIONS

THANKS RAINER